The ESA plans to sue Michigan over Violent Games Act

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The ESA plans to sue Michigan over Violent Games Act

Link to Article
The ESA being the Entertainment Software Association (read Gaming Industry). From the article: "The ESA argues that this bill is an effort to substitute the government's judgment for parental supervision and turn retailers into surrogate parents." And of course thanx again to Slashdot for providing the original link.

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Re: The ESA plans to sue Michigan over Violent Games Act

I don't even have a response to this. It is so outrageous!

Can't the drug dealers and pornographers sue the government because they have restrictions on them?

Liz

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Re: The ESA plans to sue Michigan over Violent Games Act

The big problem I can see is trying to define what is and what isn't appropriate. Unfortunately, it will come down to that since it is all subjective.
Either way, it's going to be a nightmare...

Ron

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Re: The ESA plans to sue Michigan over Violent Games Act

oooh, oooh, may I respond?!

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Re: The ESA plans to sue Michigan over Violent Games Act

Go on ahead, as long as you are on our side!! (jk)

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Re: The ESA plans to sue Michigan over Violent Games Act

I agree with the ESA here. Not just in the context of games though. I am strongly against the Nanny State. I think parents should be the ones responsible for raising their kids. In the case of the game labels, the ESRB already puts ratings on the games and most vendors follow them to some extent. Whether the labels are ignored or not, the parents should be watching the games their children play. If they find out their kid somehow got a Rated M game, the parent takes it away and the kid is out 50 bucks. The parent should also be involved with their kids friends parents as well to make sure the same is being done away from home. The Nanny State thing extends well beyond games though and that is one of the problems with this.

Some things, like drinking and driving, or drugs, are restricted lagely due to the concern for the safety of the non-drinker/non-doper. People should be allowed to do what they want in any way they want as long as there is no risk of harm to others, without Govt interference. I am not referring to harm to marriage or other emotional trauma either, I am talking about physical dangers.

The Constitution was built with the individuals rights first and foremost. That mindset was that they were going to define the powers of the Govt and anything not specifically mentioned in the Constitution was not within the powers of the Govt. Unless of course some Govt entity used the Constitution to modify Govt powers. That is where the "Incremental Precedent Factor" comes in.

Over the last 200 hundred years our Govt has gotten bigger and bigger, and more and more intrusive. These intrusionshave all been very small on their own and they were supposed to be for societies benefit, just little mods to our laws, but today our Govt and society is nothing like it was 100 years ago. We have more corruption, more immorality, more crime, more PROBLEMS, than in any time in our history(obviously excluding major individual problems, like slavery and such). One major example recently of stripping of our rights is the ruling that your home can be taken if someone else can prove they can make money off of it(paraphrased).Or all the powers the Govt now has from the patriot act. example, there is no longer a requirement for a warrant to be issued by an impartial judge, if they want to raid your house they can, no oversight required. That is something no one would have dreamed of 20 years ago and the same could be said of a myriad of other things that have been taken away from us or pushed upon us, or privacies we have lost(library records can now be reviewed at will).

Sorry, so that I do not rant forever, what I am trying to say is that by letting the Govt step in here, we are not only stepping on Americas parents, but we are setting yet another precedent for them to interfere in other areas. Whether it be movies, books, TV, what we are allowed to discuss(schools anyone?), what property is actually ours, or whatever.

I think Orwell wasn't that far off

I apologize for the length and I'm sure alot of that doesn't make sense, but this is one of my red buttons and contrary to popular opinion I really dont have that many of them

Edited by: Banninated at: 9/15/05 20:52

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Re: The ESA plans to sue Michigan over Violent Games Act

Quote:obviously excluding major individual problems, like slavery and suchDon't be so sure that slavery is gone in this country - It's still here, but much more subtle and in a different form...poverty.
Poverty does more to harm young people than video games. In fact many people, young and old, escape to the online realms because their real life is so unfulfilling and painful. How many parents do you think encourage their kids to play video games because it's safer than being out in the streets and besides, at least they know where their kids are?

But you won't see congressmen leading a crusade against poverty. Poverty is a nebulous creature, one that is a controversial one whose battle is often fought along the lines of race and income level. Only those elected officials who understand the true nature of why they were elected choose to fight that battle.

Video games are an easy scapegoat. Games can't defend themselves and few parents want to believe they were neglectful in some way. In truth, it's the society as a whole that caused these unfortunate events. It's the responsibility of the parents to raise their child. It's the responsibility of the community to help the parents if needed. It's the job of the government to help the community. And it's the job of the human race to help their fellow man... In my opinion, of course.

There is no doubt some fundamentalist activist group who is driving this legislation - Something this specific doesn't just come out of a state government on its own. It's the elected official's job to represent his constituents and so the official is doing his job...be it good or bad.

As for our government's growing obsession with tramping on our civil liberties - I agree with you, Smukatele. People need to stop being led by the media and reclaim their government which should be of the people, by the people and for the people.

As for Michigan - I guess we wait and see.

Ron

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Re: The ESA plans to sue Michigan over Violent Games Act

Poverty is a huge problem in this country, especially when considering the growing distance between the upper and lower class. There is one thing I always have to say though when poverty is brought up. Yes some people made mistakes when they were younger and that has caused them to be in a tough situation now, but no one between the ages of 18 and 31 has any right to complain about being poor. I think you can even get a waiver for being 32. I grew up as poor as they get, spent time homeless even. A few months after I turned 18 I went to boot camp. I worked hard while I wsas in and now I am now out of the USMC making more than my parents ever have combined. Even when I was in I lived better than my parents did even though you dont make much as a young enlisted...
Another tangent off of what Diggo said. We are seeing things every day that are directly harming the poor and making the rich richer. The Govt just passed some tax relief laws that helped our buddies the oil companies, so that they can improve on their 10billion a quarter profits. At the same time gas prices are as high as they have ever been which is a huge burden on those living hand to mouth. That is just one example of many. We do have a growing problem with poverty and it will take some major changes to steer that problem the other way...

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Re: The ESA plans to sue Michigan over Violent Games Act

The problem with poverty is that young people who are victims don't have strong role models, usually, or they usually come from broken homes with one parent or where both parents work all the time. Just because someone turns 18 it doesn't mean that he or she has the social skills to compete in the job market or the education, or the self esteem.
A child who grows up in an affluent environment isn't faced with daily distractions of hunger, crime, fear for his safety, and lack of those basic fundamental needs. He can learn easier without those distractions...but he also learns that those who aren't affluent are probably always after what he has...which reinforces the bias against poor people. Fear is a great motivator.

It's a fact that many people who grow up in poverty choose the military as a career because it's often the only way these folks can afford health insurance, money for education and get a steady job and life skills. That's one of the big arguments right now that only a few congressmen have children in the military because their children don't have to resort to the military for a career, educations, etc. And yet these congressmen are the ones directing the course of the war.

This country's beginning was based around the desire for wealth and profit and slavery was the way to reap huge profits without the expense - In a way, this country was founded on the backs of those slaves who toiled to raise crops like cotton and tobacco and rice and to this day, 350 years later, the poor are still sacrificing to serve the rich...all this in the most prosperous country in the world. When 25-30% of our nation has no health care coverage, or whatever the number is, and when whole cities like New Orleans have 40% of their population living below the poverty level, I think it's a disgrace that we all should be ashamed of.

Is it any wonder that people bury their life's pains and miseries in video games? There's more to "online gaming addiction" than just the games themselves. We just need to look beyond them.

Ron

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Re: The ESA plans to sue Michigan over Violent Games Act

I found this interesting:
LBN-COMMENTARY By ROBERT TRACINSKI: What Hurricane Katrina exposed was the psychological consequences of the welfare state. What we consider "normal" behavior in an emergency is behavior that is normal for people who have values and take the responsibility to pursue and protect them. People with values respond to a disaster by fighting against it and doing whatever it takes to overcome the difficulties they face. They don't sit around and complain that the government hasn't taken care of them. They don't use the chaos of a disaster as an opportunity to prey on their fellow men. But what about criminals and welfare parasites? Do they worry about saving their houses and property? They don't, because they don't own anything. Do they worry about what is going to happen to their businesses or how they are going to make a living? They never worried about those things before. Do they worry about crime and looting? But living off of stolen wealth is a way of life for them. The welfare state--and the brutish, uncivilized mentality it sustains and encourages--is the man-made disaster that explains the moral ugliness that has swamped New Orleans. And that is the story that no one is reporting.

Edited by: lizwool at: 9/16/05 22:08

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Re: The ESA plans to sue Michigan over Violent Games Act

I agree with Diggo here, especially about the affluent children not being in the military and all that signifies.

I would like to throw in one more plug though

"The problem with poverty is that young people who are victims don't have strong role models, usually, or they usually come from broken homes with one parent or where both parents work all the time. Just because someone turns 18 it doesn't mean that he or she has the social skills to compete in the job market or the education, or the self esteem."

All of which is what the good ol' Corps specializes in fixing!

OK, I'll flip my recruiter switch to off now.

Edited by: Banninated at: 9/16/05 12:55

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...

Quote:Poverty does more to harm young people than video games.

Our values are completely out of whack. There was so much talk about family values and yet the same quintessential American family so lovingly displayed in treacly Wall Street investment ads is bearing the brunt of an overwhelming assault in the form of ever longer work weeks, dual earner by necessity families, inadequate or non-existant health care, and an ever higher tax burden placed on an ever shrinking middle class. Even more frustrating is how the typcial American family reacts - by buying more stuff and digging deeper into the the hole of consumer debt. We're all so busy keeping up with the Joneses, and getting our kids into the best schools, scheduling every second of their days, or alternatively, just trying to keep the wolf away from the door, that we barely have time to talk to our kids. Most ironic is that we often choose to live this way, aren't we all just chasing the American dream?

The trick is to try and jump off the treadmill that rampant, idiotic consumerism has set us on and just say no to all the garbage we supposedly need (including games and gaming systems, I guess.) Then we can pay attention to our communities and maybe notice all the people living in poverty among us who need a hand up.

-Er, rant off now, sorry.

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Re: ...

Quote:The trick is to try and jump off the treadmill that rampant, idiotic consumerism has set us on and just say no to all the garbage we supposedly need (including games and gaming systems, I guess.) Then we can pay attention to our communities and maybe notice all the people living in poverty among us who need a hand up.Brilliantly, stated. Advertisers and the media have done such a great job of convincing us that we need to consume in order to feel good about ourselves that it's no wonder why live in such excess and why we try to drown our sorrows by burying ourselves in online environments.
Ron

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Sue Michigan over V.G.A.

I have a problem with a Violent Games Act, or suing over it. I agree that violent games or other "social stresses" can be (or are) a bad thing.
We're walking on eggshells with every step we take in this world... afraid at every inch of upsetting someone or of being sued and in this case there is already legislation allowing the restriction of rated games, movies etc., so it's redundant anyway.
We know bad "when we see it" so we (society) should be doing the policing. Sure, we can't be everywhere our kids are, but we'll be there a hell of a lot more than the law will.
In case I've led you astray of my opinion, I am in favor of the impetus behind the Violent Games Act.
But a bad thing doesn't always need a law against it. A violation against another, i.e., assault, robbery, vandalism... they're all no-brainers - they should be illegal, and are.
A crime against yourself is a bit more grey and some mindless legislators don't know when to stop making laws: where I live, it's illegal to ride a bike without a helmet or drive a car without wearing a seatbelt. Silly laws like this don't need be, we should be wise enough to do right anyway. Who ever heard of an intelligent person NOT wearing a seatbelt whenever possible? As it turns out, many of the most horrible things we do to ourselves are perfectly legal.
As parents we raise our kids as best we can and let them make their own mistakes. My folks would never allow violent video games, and as a result, when I play them I know what's morally or socially wrong in the game if it were played out in life. (Actually, it's quite ironic, My folks would not only ban violent games & TV, but would've never allowed video games entirely, and we were more violent than what we were allowed to watch on Telly).
I believe that video games are being targeted because they're approximately one human generation old, have come a long way already and society is reacting just the way it would if it were sA1/4cker-punched by them. We're acting just the way we would've in the McCarthy era: everyone's afraid of something that is really quite manageable.
Anyway, a Violent Games Act will likely invite confrontation without achieving results. Time will tell. It's probably tougher now to deal with problem video games in Michigan because it takes years for cases to go through courts.
And to the people who are suing Michigan for the act: "Shame, shame." Concentrate your efforts on your children and let the system play it's own silly games in peace.

Hi folks. Long time no see
Odien

Edited by: Odien at: 10/8/05 19:10

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Re: Sue Michigan over V.G.A.

Military Recruiters go after the poor kids because they can convince them that they have no future. It's either Military or working at McDonald's all of your life if you can't afford higher education. I've never seen kids who come from gated communities with big houses and two SUV's sign up.

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Re: Sue Michigan over V.G.A.

Quote:I've never seen kids who come from gated communities with big houses and two SUV's sign up.Indeed, this is what I've seen too.
The friends that I have that are or were in the military are predominantly middle to lower-middle class folks who feel an obligation to their families or themselves. Some of these people who just don't have what it takes to excel in the white-collar corporate cess-pool of America find skills, health benefits and education in the military. Granted, I think the concept is a good one since I think many of these folks might not get the skills and money and such otherwise. But it sucks having to earn your pay as a pawn fighting the battles when those deciding how to 'play you' don't have to be in the trenches themselves.

I'll bet you that Jessica Lynch could take the "Bush Twins" by herself and still beat them two out of three pinfalls.

Do it in mud and put on pay-per-view and I just might subscribe

Ron

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Edited by: Diggo McDiggity at: 10/11/05 12:56

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Re: Sue Michigan over V.G.A.

Yes, many of those in the military grew up poor, yes, many well-to-do folks go to college instead, but heres the thing. The military is an unmatched equalizer. Class and race do not matter in the military. Everyone gets paid the same. Everyone starts equal and can go as far as they are willing to work. 4 years serving your country and in return you get education and experience which will equal or surpass most colleges. The combination of job skills, education, and don't forget the GI Bill/tuition assitance means that in 4 years of hard work you can come out with a degree, job experience, and memories to last the rest of your life. I don't know if you'll believe me any moree than an actual recruiter, but I know many people who made 60K+ upon getting out, and some of them made it into the 6 figures within a few years of getting out. Many of the people who sign up are extraordinarily bright, they simply chose the military route because it was their way of serving their country, a badge of pride and a major life accomplishment.

My point is that whatever people were when they come in is irrelavant, in 4 years they step out with far more than the "gated community" children gained in that same 4 years.

As far as fighting other peoples battles, look at it this way. When you are in your first 4 years, you are not commanding battalions or planning attacks. You are a small part of the whole, and therefore able to help in small ways. Good ways. you can hand out food and water to people who would not otherwise have it. You can help with medical supplies. You can give toys to kids who have none. You can bring a smile to the face of people who had never had any kind of freedom. yes they now have other fears, but the people I met were more than willing to have a temporary trade for their newfound freedom. The thing is, from here in the US you can see a big picture, and thanks to the media, mostly a bad one, but while your Over There you can focus on just on doing your small part and can leave knowing you have done good for the people you have met, no matter the intentions or mistakes of those above you.

No, I am not pickin at anyones statements, I just tend to rant sometimes...

On to Jessica, I am not a fan of hers for reasons we don't need to get into here, I am off topic enough as it is.

The Bush twins on the other hand, I'm with Diggo, where do I pay?

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Re: Sue Michigan over V.G.A.

Back on topic

California passed a bill similiar to the michigan one that started this topic and the ESA is suing them as well

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Re: Sue Michigan over V.G.A.

Quote:The military is an unmatched equalizer. Class and race do not matter in the military. Everyone gets paid the same. Everyone starts equal and can go as far as they are willing to work.Yes, very true.
I neglected to mention that I have seen the military do wonders for folks who had no direction. I wish that I had done a stint when I was younger to better understand the issues now that we are facing as a country, and perhaps I might have had better direction with my life. Who knows what greater things I could have accomplished?

Ron

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Re: Sue Michigan over V.G.A.

They are also suing Illinois over their law:
ESA And VSDA Target Illinois Safe Games Act

The Electronic Software Association's president, Doug Lowenstein, and Video Software Dealers Association's president, Bo Andersen, have announced that both the ESA and the VSDA are filing a lawsuit to prevent the state of Illinois from enforcing its just-signed Safe Games Act.

The bill prevents the sale of "violent and sexually explicit" titles (i.e., games with an M-AO rating) to anyone under the age of 18. Retailers who either rent or sale such games to minors in Illinois now face a $1,000 fine.

States Lowenstein in the suit, "This law will have a chilling effect on free speech. It will limit First Amendment rights not only for Illinois' residents, but for game developers and publishers, and for retailers who wonAC/a,!a,,C/t know what games can and cannot be sold or rented under this vague new statute."

Andersen questioned whether the Governor fully intends to enforce the law or just draw attention to violent games. "The Governor's embrace of censorship is guaranteed to gain him wide media attention, but will do nothing to help parents make informed choices about the videogames their children play. Rather than imposing restrictions that cannot be understood by retailers or sustained legally, the governor should be working with retailers and the videogame industry to educate parents about videogame ratings and to encourage parents to utilize those ratings."

We'll keep you updated as the suit progresses.

Liz Woolley

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Re: Sue Michigan over V.G.A.

I was at a client's house working on his computer and his girlfriend came by with her 5 year old - She had to be in her mid 20s. She plopped him on the couch with Grand Theft Auto, San Andreas and let him have at it while she did things around the house.
These laws are only going to turn into senseless things like the war on drugs where a large amount of government resources are going to be squandered to enforce laws that parents, who are gamers themselves, will just find a way around.

Isn't our government big enough already?

Sheesh

Ron

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Re: Sue Michigan over V.G.A.

I don't know how to do the fancy quote thing; however, this is response to HunterTen's reply in mentioning that recruiters go after the poor...and so forth.

I'm in the military and I see people from all kinds of life. soldiers that came from poor, rich, and in between. Maybe your seeing what your seeing because you saw recruiters working in predominately low income areas. The "rich" have recruiters too. I enlisted back in 88' and I came from a nice family. We were not poor. Just took the opportunity to get some college money because I wanted to do it on my own.

The military is an equal opportunity empoyer (for the most part).

~Chris

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Re: The ESA plans to sue Michigan over Violent Games Act

Chris,
Thank you for your service - I know we can't say it enough.

While Americans may be divided on Iraq, there is no question that we want all your brothers and sisters (and you?) home safely as soon as possible.

Ron

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Re: The ESA plans to sue Michigan over Violent Games Act

Ron,

Thanks! Yea, on my way back home soon. Hopefully, sometime mid-Novemberish .

~Chris

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