Hello folks -
This is an older story that many folks here might already be aware of. I glanced back a few months worth of posts though and didn't see a thread on this. I thought it might be an interesting topic for discussion being that we're a board here in support of people learning to managing their habit.
Here's a link to the story:
www.contentbin.com/redir.php?r=19058
My 2 cents? As a regulatory element for people spending too much time online, the gamers that want to will likely find a way around this. Multiple accounts, playing a different game/mmorpg in their 'down time'.
The details in the news story aren't specific enough to say rather the penalties would be imposed upon a person's character or their entire account. If it's only character based and not on the account then the entire gesture seems a little futile. If anything, if the player chooses to stomach the lag he can choose to play on other countries servers.
As a way to help curb the rising problem of game addiction, I'm not sure. This doesn't seem like a horrible blow to the large percentage of the gaming population. 3 hours a day (with slight penalties) and up to 5 before the severe limitations start to kick in is a long time. 5 hours a day for a game covers a large portion of the gaming community in my opinion. The folks that play more then that (and I was one of them at one point) are the ones that will likely find ways around the system anyway. Daoc showed that a lot of players weren't afraid of owning 2 accounts to be competitive, and if that's what it takes to overcome this obstacle|
I'm curious how this might effect a lot of the end game content in mmorpgs. I haven't played WoW personally, and in the list at the end of the article Daoc (which I have played) wasn't listed, so this argument might not hold for WoW. In Daoc a lot of the runs through epic dungeons and larger raids would sometimes take over 3 hours, even when the raid is carefully organized.
Another thought (though this is somewhat on the side of the gamers) is how this might effect the gaming community in these games. If it might take a bit of the casual game-play atmosphere out of Chinese servers, since a lot of players will be playing in a way to try and maximize their 3-5 hours. Forcing people to play character classes that are more likely to obtain groups. This that are small potatoes in the overall picture of getting the players to kick the habit!
Quote: All the biggest online game operators in China have said they will adopt the new system.
According to the Interfax-China news agency, the gaming firms said they were prepared to sacrifice short-term revenues to create a healthy environment for online gamers.aEU
This was a bit heartening to hear, that game developers were willing to recognize the growing problem and help to take steps ato curb it.
- Max
Auriex,
I can't get to this article. The internet nazi's are watching I guess... Does that imply that say a char sitting in trader mode. Would that count as play time? A lot of EQ players leave their chars in bazaar when they don't play. Just curious. Thanks.
~Chris
I have posted this article in our News and Related Links section:, for those who cannot get to it.
p198.ezboard.com/folgafrm30.showMessage?topicID=153.topic
Liz
Liz Woolley
Quote:This was a bit heartening to hear, that game developers were willing to recognize the growing problem and help to take steps ato curb it.It's not that they were willing...it's that they were commanded to. Remember that China is under Communist rule and their government is one of the most repressive and controlling governments in the world today - Every aspect of their Internet usage is monitored and controlled. They have the most sophisticated firewall system in the world and block any content deemed to be a threat including Googles searches for keywords such as 'freedom,' 'democracy' and "Tibet."
Limits placed on Internet gaming are because the government has deemed that certain amounts of playing are dangerous to the individual... and to the state as a whole.
The idea of limiting gaming has some merit in terms of health, but when this policy is instituted, monitored and enforced by the government, then I think any benefit has been far outweighed by the 'Big Brother' aspect.
If I lived in China, I could be jailed for saying this.
Ron
Ron Jaffe AKA Diggo McDiggity
Discussion Board Administrator
On-Line Gamers Anonymous
Co-Founder of OLGA and member since 2002
Kewl. Thanks Liz.
~Chris
Ron,
I am going to disagree with you again.
Why are there limits on drugs and alcohol and gambling?
Because someone was getting greedy, and did not even care if they harmed or killed their own customers, just so they could make as much money off of them as possible. Obviously, when other means are used with the chemical or activity, to purposely get the person addicted, a normal Joe/JoAnn is no match for that. They are drawn into the activity/chemical as the company wanted them to be.
I am talking to a lot of gamers. They say they go in a trance when playing these games. The companies are using "other than normal" methods to get people addicted. They are intentionally creating the games to be as addicting as possible. The normal Joe/JoAnn is no match for those kind of mind games. I think they are even putting subliminal messages in the games to keep people playing. So why shouldn't the government step in to protect the "innocent" from the "preying gaming companies"?
I see nothing wrong with putting time limits on gaming. I see nothing wrong to stop all servers from 2:00 a.m. until 9:00 a.m. (or whatever bar hours are). There is a point where it is unhealthy for a person to be gaming so many hours. As we are seeing, they are unable to control their gaming. So someone needs to step in here. And if the gaming companies won't take the rein in their own hands (which we know they won't), I guess someone else will.
You call the government Big Brother. I call gaming companies parasites, harming their own customers, just so they can make more money.
Liz
Edited by: lizwool at: 10/25/05 10:12
Liz Woolley
Liz,
Only problem with your sugestion is a lot of the MMORPG company customers do not just live in USA. They live in other parts of the world. So, how do you come up with a time to shut down the servers? Quite a bit of the profit comes from other parts of the world actually.
But, really I think you can take this arguement and twist it into...an unconstitutional act. Isn't it, after all, freedom of choice...that permits us to game so much? If the government limits that... what other doors does it open if such a bill is passed into law (for the government to impose)?
We really should be careful what we ask for. One decision can set up a long line of unending turmoil imposed by a "far from perfect" government.
My .02 cents.
~Chris
Hi Chris,
I am speaking on putting limits on activities/chemicals that are drastically harming our society.
They already have limits on drugs, alcohol, prostitution, pornograhy and gambling. From what I am seeing the internet and gaming are adding all of these aspects into their games, because, at this time, they have no limits.
There is a time when guidance is wise for a society.
Obviously, it is becoming evident, that the games are not on the same level as the person playing them, because it has taken years to design them and they are designed to be as addictive as possible. I find it sad to see how many people have lost their real lives, relationships and families, after becoming addicted to these games. The people are showing that they are no match to the hooks and tactics used by the gaming companies to keep them playing, or they would not be losing their real lives, families, relationships, etc. just so they can keep playing them.
My son and my family were greatly harmed by these games and I know MANY others who have been also.
I would rather see limits put on gaming, than to keep watching people loose their real lives, their relationships and families because they cannot control themselves when playing.
Liz
Edited by: lizwool at: 10/25/05 11:11
Liz Woolley
Liz,
All I'm saying is if the government is given the okay to do what your asking. Whats to stop them from limiting other facets of our lives based on the same grounds they use to limit the gaming industry? We are not a communist country.
At some point a person has to take responsibility for what they choose to do. Why are so many people just doing the convenient thing and point their fingers at the gaming industry?
Frankly, I wish the gaming industry would pick a time period and call it "down for maintenance" or something. I'm not disagreeing with you entirely. I'm just concerned with the over all ramifications.
~Chris
Actually, Liz, I think we agree on this point more than we disagree. I do feel that limiting online playing could be beneficial. Similarly, playing too much can be detrimental. We both agree on that without question.
The problem comes in when you assign that role to the government.
(On a side note - used to be the Dems that wanted big government. Now the Reps want more monitoring, control and privacy invasion to be done by the government. Talk about Big Brother...and expense)Quote:The people are showing that they are no match to the hooks and tactics used by the gaming companies to keep them playing, or they would not be losing their real lives, families, relationships, etc. just so they can keep playing them.Yes, but you are avoiding one premise ... a healthy body does not get sick.
I contend, and maybe someday this will be proven, that if someone has a healthy, balanced and fulfilling life, then he will not become addicted to online games...period.
So in addressing this problem, you can do it one of two ways:
1. You can treat the illnes of addiction, in which case the person remains 'sick' but will eventually turn his addiction to some other activity.
2. You can treat the person and help him get his life turned around so that these addictions cannot take hold.
I saw some rare statistics that indicated that the success rate for AA is about 5%. At the same time, the success rate for people NOT attending AA is about 5%.
Those people I know who have truly turned their lives around for the long run whether it was by losing weight, getting a new career or whatever, have done so by addressing the physical, mental and spiritual aspects of their lives, not by just removing the harmful activity.
This is where I think my view is different here than many. I don't want to simply make someone game free and have them live in fear of video games for the rest of their lives thinking they will always be a victim. I want people to be champions of their lives and reclaim their health, their pride and dignity and be the best people they can be. And then, if and when they choose to play a video game again, they can do so with the confidence of knowing they will never again become a victim.
Now I'm not naiive enough to think that anyone can do it with ease, but by taking small steps of trying to fix the physical, mental and spiritual aspects of their lives, people can become much more than they ever thought possible.
One of my favorite lines in the movie "Patch Adams," Robin Williams says:Quote:If you just treat the disease, sometimes you win...sometimes you lose. But if you treat the person, you win every time."
For the record, I don't think that limiting gaming is a bad idea, I just don't want my government restricting the flow of information, whether it is news, online games or even adult porn.
Ron
Ron Jaffe AKA Diggo McDiggity
Discussion Board Administrator
On-Line Gamers Anonymous
Edited by: Diggo McDiggity at: 10/25/05 19:20
Co-Founder of OLGA and member since 2002
Liz, while it is obviously true that there are in fact limits placed on access to certain things in our society - gambling, guns, alcohol, etc., there are few, if any limits, placed on consumption. For example, once I am old enough to buy alcohol, I can buy as much as I like, enough to drink myself to death if I choose to. No law prevents me from doing so. Once I am of age, I can also buy as many cigarettes as I like. Once inside a casino, I can spend my last dollar there, and no one will try to stop me, certainly not the government.
The price of having a society based (until recently) on personal freedom is that self-destructive but non-criminal behavior can't be regulated by the government. Nor should it. My brother in law is an athlete extremely dedicated to his sport, rowing. He has completely destroyed one of his shoulders due to overuse. He is currently recovering from his second surgery and plans to return to rowing in a few months. Should the government intervene and pass a law limiting the time he spends rowing? Here's another example. My grandmother is a diabetic. While she is well aware that she should not eat things like Krispy Kreme donuts, she loves them. Should the government prevent her from buying donuts? Ok, one more. My father, now retired, is unfortunately still a workaholic, and is vulnerable to injuries sustained from working on his home carpentry projects for hours longer than is good for him. Should the government come and lock up his shop when he refuses to take a break?
There are many things that we do that aren't good for us, but we do them anyway, and we must simply accept the responsibilty for the damage we do to ourselves. I'm sure that Krispy Kreme knows that their product is very bad for us, but they keep flogging their donuts, don't they? And we keep buying them, hopefully only as an occassional treat, but if not, then we have only ourselves to blame. Once we begin to allow the powers that be to dictate how we ought to live we are in big, big trouble.
I do agree with you that games are designed to be addictive, in the sense that they are designed to keep you engaged and playing for as long as possible. They are not unique in that regard, however. Shopping malls, department stores, grocery stores and amusement parks all share similar characteristics. They are all cleverly designed to keep you inside for as long as they possibly can, in order to wrest every possible dollar from you before you escape. Starbucks are also painstakingly designed to become an ingrained habit. It's all about marketing, and it all relies heavily on psychology.
Edited by: boredhousewife677 at: 10/25/05 17:06
Quote:Shopping malls, department stores, grocery stores and amusement parks all share similar characteristics. Yes, this is true but I never really associated with the same hooks that gaming would have until now. Restaurants on the other hand, invite you to consume as much as possible and then get you to leave so that there will be room for others. There's not a chain of food restaurants anywhere that didn't have an army of people with stop watches at some point timing the average stays of its patrons at different times of the day. It's for a reason.
Ron
Ron Jaffe AKA Diggo McDiggity
Discussion Board Administrator
On-Line Gamers Anonymous
Co-Founder of OLGA and member since 2002
Yes! Those darn crispy cream donuts! They are sooo bad for you and they keep pumping them out?! But, how do you say "no" to a crispy cream donut?? Ohhh boy, I'm gonna put a visit to crispy cream on my list of things to do within my first few days back from hell. I'm sooo thanking you for mentioning those delightful round so tasty fat pills
~Chris
I prefer the plain glazed Krispy Kreme.
Any more than that is just too much for me....
As far as comparing the shopping malls, doughnuts, books, TV, etc. to MMORPG is ludicrous. An MMORPG is another life, it is not a single event or item. I have never played them and when I think of the time it would take, to learn how, forget it! I would much rather make a 30 minute dash to the shopping mall and be done with it!
These all end and I do not have peer pressure that if I am not there, no one else can do things. I can choose to spend and much or as little time doing each thing. I can turn off the TV any time I want, I can come home from the shopping mall any time I want and I can close the book any time I want. This is not so with MMORPG. I am not having my brain messed with and going into a hypnotic trance while I do those other things (except maybe reading a book).
Liz
Liz Woolley
Quote:These all end and I do not have peer pressure that if I am not there, no one else can do things. I can choose to spend and much or as little time doing each thing. I can turn off the TV any time I want, I can come home from the shopping mall any time I want and I can close the book any time I want. This is not so with MMORPG. I am not having my brain messed with and going into a hypnotic trance while I do those other things (except maybe reading a book).Liz, Liz, Liz. Of all people who I expect to hear that from, the last would be you.
The fact is that there are "Compulsive Shoppers Anonymous" groups for people who compulsively shop for the sake of shopping and who run up thousands and thousands of dollars in debt and fill their house with things they never open and in many cases don't even take out of the shopping bags. These people have rooms full of new merchandise never looked and stored in piles. You can stop at any time, but they cant.
There are people who watch TV compulsively, like my widowed mother, who do nothing else in their lives. They don't talk to people, go outside, meet with family members because they have to watch television constantly. They don't bathe, just like gamers, they don't eat properly and when you try to talk to them on the phone they sound distracted because you can hear the TV in the background and know they are watching and not really paying attention to you.
There are compulsive readers, who live in libraries and bookstores who bury themselves in the fantasy lives of others. Sure, reading is clean and considered a healthy, intellectual pursuit, but when one shuts off his real life and only lives vicariously through the heroes of his fantasy novels, then that is not healthy either. You can close a book whenever you want, but real life is too painful for others.
My point is that you have to look at compulsive shopping, gameplaying, alcoholism, drug addiction, television watching, etc., in the context of what the causes and effects of each activity are. In many ways these things are similar, but in many ways they are not. One thing is sure...any of these activities taken to excess can destroy lives, families and relationships.Quote:This is not so with MMORPG. I am not having my brain messed with and going into a hypnotic trance while I do those other things (except maybe reading a book).Sure you are. That's the whole point. Those same psychologists that are designing video games are the SAME EXACT ones who help design stores to make you buy more, to stay longer, to go down this aisle instead of that. Your whole visit to a chain store is a psychological manipulation from when you enter to when you leave. Here's an example.
Wal-Mart, who is finally getting the beat-down they deserve for putting profits ahead of their employees and their family's needs, which is why I don't shop there anymore, uses this delicious psychological ploy:
When you walk into a Super Wal-Mart, you will notice tall stacks of items with huge price cards showing an extremely low price on an item...say a 13-inch color television for $29.95. Your brain says, "Wow, that is a very low price, but a 13-inch TV is a little small - since the price is so low on that, the prices on the larger TVs much be equally as low. So you walk back to the electronics department and buy a 19-inch TV. In your head, you figured that the 13-inch TV was cheap so the price you paid for the 19-inch TV must also be cheap. In actuality, you paid the same or possibly even more than you would if you bought that 19-inch TV somewhere else.
On these stacks of products, there is one stack from each department, strategically placed for you to run into it. As you pass by stack after stack, your brain says "lowest prices....lowest prices...must....buy....must...shop" and so before you know it your cart is full of all kinds of crap you didn't need, but which you bought because of the extremely ....low....prices...
Now some may say that's just savvy marketing and in fact it is. Wal-Mart is the best, but that is one example of how retail establishments "mess with your brain and cause you to trance out" as you alluded to.
In other stores, they use colors, lighting, aisle paths, merchandise placement, music, air freshener scents, employee uniforms to similarly cause these pscyhological responses in their customers' minds without the customers even realizing it.
Liz, no one is demeaning the seriousness of online gaming addiction. It is a serious problem that at its worst, destroys lives and lives of families and friends. You and I have both seen this first hand.
I think if we take a look at other similar 'addictions' and focus on the similarities between them and not the differences, then we can better understand what it is about ourselves that allows us to get hooked...and also what it takes to get unhooked.
I too prefer glazed Krispy Kreme ... hot off the belt.
Ron
Ron Jaffe AKA Diggo McDiggity
Discussion Board Administrator
On-Line Gamers Anonymous
Co-Founder of OLGA and member since 2002
Liz, just because you are not vulnerable to the "hooks" offered by television, malls, etc., doesn't mean no one is. Personally, I hate the mall, but when I must go I often come home with a bunch of crap that I never intended to buy. So the psychology works on me, much to my chagrin, even though I can't stand the place, and avoid it if humanly possible. I won't even go into how many unnecessary and not so good for me tidbits end up coming home with me from the grocery store, in spite of my awareness of the tricks used by retailers to manipulate me!
I know that's not addiction, but there are an awful lot of people who love the mall, and are compulsive shoppers. As for TV, as Ron said, there are many people who watch way more than is good for them. "Must See TV" indeed. What is the average for Americans now? 5 hours a day? TV must be the most prevelent addiction today when you think about it. Of course there's also a handy way to combine shopping with television. I think in my area we get at least 4 shopping channels. You can also get your gambling fix from home now with online gambling. Ditto pornography.
Here's the thing though, annoying as all this temptation and manipulation for profit is, only a fraction of people will be seriously effected by it to the point of compulsion or addiction. The same is true of online gaming. Only a small fraction of gamers are addicts. Most gamers can play and maintain balance in their lives. That's not to minimize the damage done to the compulsive gamers (and other compulsives like shoppers, overeaters, gamblers, etc.) by their compulsion. It's just wrong to single out gaming by limiting hours played when there are so many other ways that people are using compulsive behavior to hurt themselves.
In the end, you'd have to have TVs that shut themselves off after a couple hours, casinos that kicked you out - win or lose - after a specified period of time, customer cards giving you a weekly allotment of junk food, libraries and bookstores limiting the number of books you could have, grocery quotas, "what's good for you" spending limits on your bank accounts regardless of how much money in your account, and the list goes on and on. It just isn't workable because the number of ways human beings can find to make themselves miserable through compulsion or obsession is infinite, and once you to try and solve one through legislated limits where do you draw the line?
One of the scariest things about such a scenario of big brotherism is that, while perhaps we'd all be much healthier in some ways, we'd never develop any self-control on our own. You need to exceed the limits sometimes to know where your tolerance line is. Growth as a human being is not possible without making many mistakes and learning from them. The whole challenge of living is in making your way through the maze of choices, good and bad, and learning from your experience. If we get lost for a while, going around in circles, it's up to us to figure out how to take that one different turn that's going to get us out. If we have big brother leading us out every time we'll never learn.
End to shopping? There is no end to shopping I tell you! My wife can shop until she drops and always... I say always brings home crap we don't need! It's absolutely crazy. You go with a list of things you need and come home with nothing that's on that list
Yea, when you think about how many MMORPG players there is compared to how many are addicts...really for the most part people can stop playing when they want. We just happen to be the minority that at some point couldn't
3 cents for sure on that one!
~Chris
Chris,
And it is for those who can't just get up and walk away, that we are here for.....
Liz
Liz Woolley