[color=Blue]Mod note: long posts are fine, itA,A's the absence of paragraphs that make long texts difficult to read ...[/color]
I found this site today because of a story in the local paper. I have spent the last hour or more reading the message boards. I know these games are played mostly by males but we have a daughter who is, I believe, addicted to WOW. Our daughter was given the game by her boyfriend (ex, now) last year. This was shortly after she ahd been diagnosed with depression.
For the last year we have been coping with her depression and the gaming. She had been on the honor roll in school for years until last year when her grades began slipping and she started missing a lot of school. By the time last summer came along, she had dropped one class and fortunately got back on track with going to school and made it through 10th grade. She is now in 11th grade, the old boyfriend is long gone (and that's a whole other but related story) but gaming is still a problem.
She is seeing two therapists (one a psychiatrist and another a counsellor) for treatment of the depression and associated behavioral issues. Her dad and I began seeing a therapist recently in order to figure out strategies for better parenting. I am beyond frustrated with our daughter's gaming. Her school work is still suffering, she has problems getting up to go to school, sometimes skips school (saying she is not feeling well).
This is a child who began high school in several honors classes and now is down to one honors class; her grades are not where they could be but we are awaiting her latest grade report. She quit the part time job she had and is resistant to getting a new one. She spends most of her time at home on WOW and while she has friends, most of them seem to be WOW players as well. Her behavior towards us is atrocious: rude, irritable, a lot of stuff that looks like "normal' teenage stuff. However, she also lost a lot of weight last fall (it's back up al little now) and emerges from her room to get food to take back up to her room and play.
Before this, we sat down for family meals but she doesn't want to anymore. All told life is quite unpleasant around her. Here is what we have done: The psychiatrist advised back in December to take the computer away and let her get on to do homework but then when we saw the counsellor, he thought it wasn't the best strategy (yes the two therrpists communicate with each other) for her.
We gave it back but negotiated some terms, none of which were followed for more than a day. When the school year started we decided that she needed to be off the computer at a reasonable hour on schoolnights. When it began seeming that she was extending times, we began disconnecting the internet cable at 10:30 on school nights. Of course she has been angry and illtempered and last week she wanted us to stop disconnecting her and agrred that she would turn it off herself at 10:30.
The first night she did, the second night it was 10:35, the 3rd night 10:45. The 4th night negotiated with her father for half hour more, trading it for half hour the next night. Yes, she did turn it off at 10. However, this week she has not been able to get up and stayed home one day, and was tardy two days. Yesterday in the session with her therapist she seemed to be saying that we should not be limiting her to 10:30 because it won't motivate her to go to school and in effect that she should be on till 11:30 or midnight.
It emerged later that she is thinking about a few weeks down the road (something about raids that have to be done at a certain time). Her dad and I are not budging on the time. I for one am waiting to see what the response is going to be. I think we need more drastic action and after reading what people on this board have said, I am more convinced of it.
I am concerned about the parent whose child took off to live with one of the gamer friends. My daughter also has "friends" through online gaming. I also know that my husband isn't on the same page I am with how to handle this problem. I have said I for one am willing to disconnect the internet service altogether if that's what it is going to take (even though we need it for our jobs--but we can go to work) Help!
Sorry in advance for the typos and long post.
Strange therapist ... itA's like saying: if you donA't give her enough cocaine, she wonA't go to school. From having been an addict myself and having a brother who is on and off games: Cancel her account ... sell the gaming computer, get an old laptop or something. Help her to help herself... Love and Light Max
Welcome satyag.A We have an ever-increasing population of parents on this board, though almost exclusively parents of boys.A However, I fully expect to see more and more girls getting into this addiction, and I would guess most will be turned onto WoW by their boyfriends.A We do have some young women on this board who are recovering addicts.A It is frustrating and sad when a spouse or significant other gets addicted to games, and I don't mean to dismiss what they go through, but it is heartbreaking when your child gets addicted.A As you have already noticed, this addiction changes their personalities and scrambles their brains.A She will bargain with you and manipulate you forever and will never keep her side of the bargain for more than a day or two.A She can't.A Once you get to higher levels in the game, it is not possible to play for just an hour or two at a time.A She will never be able to control her involvement in this game.A It's really tough to take a stand with these kids, and it's tougher to see them slowly slipping away from you.A She needs to stop playing now.A The biggest problem once she stops (assuming you're able to stop her, which is not always easy) is that she will have hours and hours of free time during which she will obsess about the game unless she has something else to do to keep her occupied.
A note on school:A She is a second-semester junior, a time when kids begin planning for college.A I would inform her right now that you will not be contributing one red cent to her college education until she is one year clean from WoW (that gives her ~7 months to get off the game).A It sounds like she is a very intelligent girl and I know you had high hopes for her, given all the honors classes she has taken, etc, but if you send her away to college playing WoW, she will fail.A I guarantee it.A If she graduates high school and wants to go to college but is still playing WoW, tell her you will consider contributing if she goes to JC and manages to maintain a decent GPA.A She can pay the tuition herself and you can reimburse her if she succeeds.
Keep coming here and reading the posts.A I learned SO MUCH from these people.A They are the greatest bunch, even if I haven't met any of them in RL.A Ask questions.A You will get answers.A Good luck to you and your daughter.
"Small service is true service while it lasts. Of humblest friends, bright creature! scorn not one
The daisy, by the shadow that it casts,
Protects the lingering dewdrop from the sun." -------William Wordsworth
We're so glad you came here for help/advice and I hope we are able to provide some comfort, as well! I second absolutely everything Gamersmom said. In September of '05 our son saw a psychiatrist and a counselor for the first time. Neither had heard of a gaming compulsion, much less WoW. What I'm saying is, a professional who has seen the degree of compulsion in even one teen and who has dealt with any type of addiction therapy is unlikely to suggest moderation. Those are still hard to find, however! Those of us who have been in your position with our own kids want to save you from taking the in-between steps that we did. Once the line from entertainment/escape into addiction has been crossed, moderation is not possible. Even when these kids aren't playing, they are consumed by thoughts of the game. All of the behaviors you describe have been experienced by each and every one of us. The list: failing grades, weight gain or loss, depression, "friends" on the game but less and less interaction with family, rude and/or disruptive behavior regarding reduction or cessation of game playing, deceit, refusing to go to school, change in wake/sleep cycles, manipulation...and it goes on and on. One of the things I personally feel is a common characteristic of the ones who become excessively engaged in the game is intelligence. I repeatedly hear that the kids were bright, had terrific grades, etc. Mine did, too. But one other characteristic was that he was an underachiever. The grades were good when he simply paid attention and invested a minimal amount of effort. Ron made a point in a different post with which I've had personal experience. It is so very, very important. The parents must be united. If one parent wants to negotiate, the other will become the "bad guy". We were there for over a year and my son played it to the hilt, driving the wedge in as deep as he could. Thankfully, he didn't succeed in breaking us up and we're one heck of a force to contend with again (best friends before marriage 28+ years married), as he's discovered. He is still trying to work it every chance he gets, even though he's been out of our home for 4 months. I can promise you that every time my son behaved decently or made an effort to improve his grades it was nothing more than an attempt to have gaming privileges restored. After that it went one of two ways...the game came back and he went back to previous behaviors. Or, we kept the game away and he went back to previous behaviors. That is the hardest part of this whole thing...you can't stand to see your child throw away his remaining youth and future as an adult. They self-destruct. I truly believe that they wield their grades/education as a weapon with no real sense of hurting themselves. Rather, they just want to hurt the person or persons who have hurt them by removing the game. My advice is the same. It will be hard for you, but you must remove any access to the game. Good luck, and please keep coming here. We really do want to know how things are going.
Thank you very much. You confirm what I have been thinking and saying, especially to my husband. Yes, we have seen the promises lasting not more than a day. I am alerting evey counselor I know to this site. I have sent my husband the link and hope he gets on. We are 30 years married this year and yes, I think this is hurting our realtionship too.
30 years married this year too. This is just exhausting at our age, isn't it? Hang in there.
"Small service is true service while it lasts. Of humblest friends, bright creature! scorn not one
The daisy, by the shadow that it casts,
Protects the lingering dewdrop from the sun." -------William Wordsworth
Strange therapist ... itA's like saying: if you donA't give her enough cocaine, she wonA't go to school. It wasn't the therapist who said this, it was my daughter. As I said, she is very good at trying to get more time. My husband isn't convinced that we should just get her off. She has been on most of today apparently (i was out, he was in). As someone pointed out, I know the first task is to get him on board. Unfortunately, that will take a great deal of work. I am absolutely not going to let her go away to college without some change in behavior. I read too many horror stories here already. I just feel that the window of opportunity to make the changes necessary to get her off is very narrow. We do have a concern that her depression that she is still being treated for is a complicating factor. She has made a great deal of progress in the last year in that regard. I really would like a sense of the range of responses that parents have had from their teens when they have cut off access to the game altogether. In addition, someone has mentioned therapeutic boarding schools. I'd like to know about those: where are they, what do they cost, what are your experiences with them. Yesterday, we had her read the local paper's story about the problem. Of course, both she and her friend who had dropped by didn't think it applied to them and indeed thought it was funny. I take some comfor in the fact that she read it. Thanks everyone for your support
Have your husband read some of these stories. As WoWparent said before, you both MUST be on the same page or she will keep manipulating you. As for depression, I think MMORPG's can actually CAUSE depression. Our son was never depressed until he got hooked on WoW. He was the happiest, most laid-back kid I've ever met. These games alter neurotransmitter levels. They get a rush, stay up all night playing, and then crash. My son is finally coming out of that, 8.5 months after he last played WoW, and 3 months after he last played any computer game. Until the past week, he has pretty much slept or laid around staring at the ceiling except when he was working. We've done our best to get his butt off the couch whenever we could, sending him out to mow the lawn last summer, rake leaves in the fall, and shovel snow this winter (though we haven't had enough snow to keep him busy) Getting them out in the sun a little bit every day helps to regulate the sleep/wake cycles, i think. He had his days and nights all screwed up for quite awhile. WoWparent's son is the one in the therapeutic boarding school. It's not specifically for gamers, but they developed a program for him. You could PM her (click on her name on her post above, scroll down to the bottom of her profile and the link to PM her is there) There is an inpatient unit for gaming rehab in Illinois (right up the road from the university my kid flunked out of. Go figure). Your husband really needs to come here and read some of these stories so he knows what he's dealing with. I didn't believe how badly this could affect the gamer and the family until I came here and started reading. Good luck.
"Small service is true service while it lasts. Of humblest friends, bright creature! scorn not one
The daisy, by the shadow that it casts,
Protects the lingering dewdrop from the sun." -------William Wordsworth
Hello again, Satyag. About 2 hours ago I had a very long post composed but somehow I lost it. This will be much shorter. My husband was the negotiator for almost 13 months. During that time, we did everything you're doing regarding improving our parenting techniques...and then some. In the final analysis, it was he whose back had to be broken. Fortunately for me, that happened while I was out of town. As I've posted before, once he finally got on board he pretty much took control of the ship! He has agreed to post something tomorrow in hopes that he can help your husband understand that moderation isn't possible. We recognize every single thing you tell us about your daughter. My son was never depressed until he started gaming. If it contributes to depression, I can't imagine how it can possibly help depression to continue gaming. All it does is provide an escape. While you're escaping, you avoid real life issues and then avoid the new problems by escaping even further into your addiction. My son now has to face the things that drove him to play and the resulting behaviors and addictions, to boot.
addiction fuels depression and depression fuels addiction, in the end they are both symptoms of something unfullfilled in the life of that individual ... So the primary question is: what is the void that person is trying to fill (addiction) / hiding from+is frustrated about (depression)? Second one is: how do we help her to fill the void / solve the frustration
I wasn't diagnosed with mental illness until 2 years after playing Ultima Online. Sure I had some underlying issues, but I am 100% sure that my intense and excessive gaming exacerbated my illness. :'(
-6 Years Free of Online Gaming-
I have sent my husband to this site. I believe he has looked at some of the stuff but is not convinced. WoWparent's experience with her son resonates with mine. Our daughter proclaimed the other day that she is an underachiever. Like Wowparent's son, she can get by with minimal effort if she pays attention. She too was once a confident and outgoing child who was very affectionate. I don't recognize the person that she now is. One thing about the sleep cycles, especially with teenagers, is that teenage sleep cycles are different and so it is a bit difficult to determine what's normal and what's a response to the hours of gaming. She keeps saying that there are people playing who have good careers and families. I assume that there are people who can play and not let the game control their lives, just as there are those who can not let gambling or television control their lives. Of course, these games are relatively new and we don't know a whole lot about them. I have read that they do affect dopamine levels. I will look forward to WoWparent's husband's post.
[size=14]This seems to be a recurring theme ... I know I was very much an "underachiever" in school. I never had any trouble keeping up without studying a lick. The main thing that slowed me down was I also had a hard time getting my homework done so I failed a couple classes the first half of my freshmen year of high school with high 90's on tests but so many points deducted for not turning in homework that I failed. I didn't game much back then (mainly because computer games were far more primitive) but I shudder to think what would have happened to me if I had been exposed to the MMORPG's that kids are these days. As it is MMORPG's have ruined my life. If I had started back in High School or before, I wouldn't have even had a life to ruin.[/size]
" ... don't question it just go" "... where the body goes the mind will follow"
.
Borrowed from "Desire to Stop"
It's sad that the kids are not even giving themselves a chance to have a life. This just in: my local news (CBS) says they are doing a story on how the internet is "killing our kids" at 11. I wonder if it is picked up from the local paper where Liz was quoted? By the way, I had a very bright student (did the class tests but not any writing assignments) who I now suspect might be a gamer. If I see him again, I'm going to ask.
It's funny... about how young they start... During "Center" time at school, I have a computer centers... It's basically 3 PCs which 4 kids share. They're only allowed to play math or reading games, and this lasts for about 40 minutes... One kid yesterday ~ I had to practically SHOUT his name up to 4x to get his attention OFF the screen. He was so engrossed in his game... It reminded me some of me when I was so into WoW that someone had to almost scream to get my attention... I realise he's only 7, but still ~ Scary stuff... Love, Solei
-6 Years Free of Online Gaming-
The student I am talking about is a college student (I teach at a university). Since I have seen posts here from parents of college students, I now am wondering how many of our students are hooked. I have a grad student who talks about XBox all the time-- I don't know anything about it. As for my family. My husband seems to think I might be developing a problem (coming to this site). Meanwhile, my daughter's report card was due home last week. We have reminded her everyday to no avail. Last night, I finally said to her that there will be no internet access today if that report card was not brought home. We shall see. Her response was to stop threatening her. Apparently, she has figured out where the cable is hooked up and can rehook herself. If she does that then I am going to have to figure out something else. I know that ideally the thing to do is cutt her off altogether but I don't have the support from her dad yet to do so, so I feel I am in a no-win situation.
The parallels just keep on coming! I remember when I believed my son's excuses that he hadn't been given his report card because he was in football practice, etc. I'd be willing to bet that you won't be happy with the results when you finally get them. As for your husband's objection to you frequenting this site. Mine was the same. He now supports me completely in my desire to bring this to the attention of parents before the problems occur. But we all have different ways of coping. I have no scientific proof of this, but my observation is that women share more freely than men. It's a little bit of the Venus and Mars thing. I came here for advice and support when I wasn't getting what I needed from my spouse. You are still following the path that we did for so long. I once told my husband I'd leave our house if he ever gave the game back. He did, and I didn't leave. So I wouldn't recommend that strategy! What it took for him was facing the deceit on his own while I was away. If that's an option during your next school break, I'd try it. Mothers tend to be the front line when dealing with kids and therefore see things differently...or sooner. I will repeat what I've said for so long, and so many times. Once you're addicted, there is no such thing as moderation. Your daughter is exhibiting the same behaviors as my son and so many others. I know that my husband was once afraid of losing his son. It took a while for him to realize that what we did when we took control was our way of trying to save him. We hope that we'll have a relationship with him again. But we have agreed that we'd rather have no relationship and a well-rounded, productive and successful son than no relationship with one who gives his life and future up to a game.
I second WoWparent's assessment of the situation. You will NOT like what you see on that report card. That's another thing that these games do is to distort a kid's sense of logic. My kid would continue to tell lies and perpetuate his fantasies that everything was fine when he knew darn well that there was no way he could hide the truth from us for more than a few days once we were onto him. I also agree that total abstinence is the only way to get the kid off the game. Trying to use WoW in moderation for a gaming addict is like an alcoholic trying to have just one beer. The game completely distorts their sense of time, so she may actually believe she is using in moderation.
"Small service is true service while it lasts. Of humblest friends, bright creature! scorn not one
The daisy, by the shadow that it casts,
Protects the lingering dewdrop from the sun." -------William Wordsworth
Thank you both Wowparent and Gamersmom. I just got in and of course the report card isn't home. Then she said that she just gave a borrowed book back to a teacher and her report card will be released tomorrow. She has been talking about giving this book back for a week now (Grades were due out last week). She also told me I wasn't going to like what I saw on the grade report so why did I want them? Well, because I'm your parent! I'm waiting now for her father to come home and take it from there. My hope is that with the grade report showing no improvement, he'll come around. I'm not exactly holding my breath. I should go away so he has to deal with it. SO much of her anger is focused on me and I do think he's afraid of losing her. Not so long ago her therapist had suggested that she live away from us for a while. We have no family around, so not an option. I have considered getting a room somewhere and raised it with my family, so it's an option. Expensive but probably worth it!
Okay, it has been a week since I found this site and I need a bit of help with homework from the therapist my husband and I are seeing. To remind everyone: we (parents) are really on different pages when it comes to how to deal with our daughter. I think she is addicted, he thinks she is just going through a phase and will get bored with this. Yesterday, just before we saw our therapist, our daughter had a screaming fit because dad turned the internet off (while she was on the game). This was because she still had not brought home the report card (which was out last week). He told her on Sunday that if it wasn't home on Monday, no internet time. Guess what, there was internet time despite not bring the report home (since, in his view, she had a good reason). More or less the same thing on Tuesday and Wednesday. Yesterday, even though in his view she had another good reason, I suggested he follow through on the consequence. The whole session with our therapist was spent on the issue of parenting her. I think our daughter is spending 40 to 60 hours a week on this game. She will often say she is on but not playing. Is that possible? Our therapist suggested we gather some evidence about how much time she is playing . My husband thinks it is not quite that much. My question is, how can we determine how much time she actually is playing? She plays WOW. I know she does other stuff on the computer but we need to figure out how much time she is gaming. She has password protected her computer so we can't get on. So help, how can we find out how much time she actually plays?
Check this out: http://www.olganonboard.org/index.php?topic=785.0 However, didn't the screaming fit convince your husband that this is not normal? She's giving you classic excuses and evidence of denial. Apparently you will need access to your daughter's account on WoW to check this out. HOWEVER, why was she allowed to password-protect her computer? I would vote for a new rule in your house: She does not have access to ANY computer in your house unless it is protected with a password that only you know and she asks permission every time she logs on. I would take the computer that she password-protected, lock it in a closet, and tell her she can have it back when she gives you the password and allows you to change it to one of your own. Sorry if that sounds harsh, but I see her headed towards the same place my son ended up, and it's a scary place. I'm praying your husband gets on the same page soon, because you will get nowhere until he does.
"Small service is true service while it lasts. Of humblest friends, bright creature! scorn not one
The daisy, by the shadow that it casts,
Protects the lingering dewdrop from the sun." -------William Wordsworth
Unfortunately no, he treats the response as a normal expression of teenage rebellion at attempts to control. Yes, I know so well that we won't get anywhere unless we are united. She justwent ahead and password protected her computer--we did not know. Until the gaming issue emerged, all of our computers were not password protected--we all have our own . We then moved to password protect ours because we did not want her to have access to ours when we disconnected hers. I think your idea of taking it and then giving it back when she gives us the password is a good one. I bet anything my husband is going to disagree. I will raise it with him though. Meanwhile, she brought home the report card today. If he had any sense, he'd realize that she was shown he meant business yesterday when he shut down the internet. When she was throwing the door-slamming fit (after the screaming ended) yesterday, I told him to ignore it which he only reluctantly did (and we were headed to therapy anyway). She stopped. You'd think this would send a message that ignoring tantrums work. We'll see what he does next time around and I'm certain there will be a huge one over the password issue. I'll check out the info. Thanks.
These kids can really get in your face, can't they? I never thought I would be dealing the kind of behaviors I've seen from my kid. He used to be my calmest and sweetest kid. He NEVER got snotty or angry before. If there was something going on that he didn't like, he would just get quiet and walk away, but not much ever upset him. It's really kind of frightening the way they become. That's a symptom of the addiction. The thing that gets me is that we've poured so much energy into rasing these kids and we just about had them all out the door, just in time too, since my energy level is slowly declining. Now I just don't have the energy to handle these confrontations. It's easier just to back off sometimes, but you know it's not the best thing for them, so you gotta stay strong. The "one day at a time" thing is not a bad philosophy for right now. Hang in there.
"Small service is true service while it lasts. Of humblest friends, bright creature! scorn not one
The daisy, by the shadow that it casts,
Protects the lingering dewdrop from the sun." -------William Wordsworth
Thanks so much for the support. I feel the same way. On a positive note, I was looking over her shoulder tonight while she played and asked her a couple of questions. She said something that gave me a glimmer of hope that she realizes she has been investing too much time in this. This was partly because she has started receiving college information since her PSAT scores were released. Got materials from NYU--excellent school. She said she'd never get in there because of her "emo" year and falling grades. I asked her if she thought she coulld get on track again if she invested as much time in her art and schoolwork. She thought she could. Good thing was all this was quite calm--a conversation. I guess I'll take these moments when I can. Hanging in.
Hubby just read over my shoulder. Gamersmom is right about taking the computer away. That's what he did...and we never gave it back. I had let up on password protecting my computer so he came in here the next day and did it for me. The "clue" he set was HAHAHA SUCKA! I called the police, they came out and talked to him and he changed it. I then password protected it and he was OUT. However, he did have his school laptop and simply loaded the game and hooked into any available wireless network at a friend's...or into the ones our neighbors didn't firewall. I must be honest. I believe your daughter is seriously addicted. The polite conversation was, in my opinion, simply a manipulation. She's working you. I say that because my son did it, too. He did it so well, and for so long, that it's going to take a very long time for us to believe in his sincerity. The only way he's going to have our trust again his through his actions. He couldn't quit, he didn't quit. He'd still be playing if we hadn't sent him away.
Yes, it crossed my mind that she is playing me. The report card was not good. Now will need to talk to the school counselor on Monday.
I truly feel your pain, Do report cards mean more to parents than kids sometimes? :'(. I have experienced the hurt that bad news from school, brings even if you "know it's coming") (we were sort of blindsided and it hurt like crazy, and not as much help from school as I would have liked, this is before I realized how much the game tied in).. I hope the counsellor is compassionate and understanding. Maybe bring a page or two from here if you haven't yet already. (and can Dad go too?) (or phone him for conference call while you're there?) Another idea to grasp at lines to "pull your daughter out of the whirlpool". (I like analogies too much ::))
Since she did make contact with you on the college question, maybe you three could make a precollege tour of a few schools for spring break time. (Even if she is a few years away) I really think that would have been good for us/and son a few years back. (A teacher suggested it was a good way to light a spark, but we went on vacation instead. Wish we had taken his suggestion). Warm hugs and good lucks on your next steps!!
"a mind is a terrible thing to waste"
We tried the college visit thing. Could only get gamerson to go to one college (the one he had chosen) and he was antsy and restless the whole time. In retrospect. he was obviously in withdrawal. The orientation weekend during the summer before he started was the same. He was restless, anxious, actually pacing the floor waiting for us to finish asking questions so we could leave.
"Small service is true service while it lasts. Of humblest friends, bright creature! scorn not one
The daisy, by the shadow that it casts,
Protects the lingering dewdrop from the sun." -------William Wordsworth
We are both college professors so she has been to many, especially when we were visitng them with her older sister. However, now she is only a year away from college, it might be time to take her to at least one that she is interested in. That's a good idea. In any case, her dad and I are about to sit down and talk with her, hopefully in a calm, non-onfrontational way. It's just so sad to see her mess up so close to finishing high school. Today, I am not so angry as I am sad and disappointed because it's her future she is harming, not mine.
Totally understand that feeling. Good luck to you when you talk to her.
"Small service is true service while it lasts. Of humblest friends, bright creature! scorn not one
The daisy, by the shadow that it casts,
Protects the lingering dewdrop from the sun." -------William Wordsworth
Well, the talk didn't go well. I'm sure you parents are not surprised. She basically doesn't want to talk about the schoolwork or the time on the computer (generally) and the game. She did tell me that she was logged on a total of 31 days for one character. I'm not sure since when. I asked about other characters but she said that it was a "pain" to check and she didn't want to. In addition, this character she has spent 31 days on is, I assume. within the new guild that she joined sometime in the fall. So, can a person be multiple characters within the same guild? She also said that even though the time is recorded, it doesn't mean that she has spent that time playing. I guess, like the logged in time that is shown for this site doesn't mean that I have been on this site for all that time, right? Gamersmom, her dad did tell her that she needs to unpassword protect the computer and he was now going to be the administrator. I suggested he give her a certain time frame for that (which he did). I then asked what he would do if she didn't follow through. I just wanted him to commit to something. I think he was very disappointed in the unwillingness to talk even. She says we are screwing up things for her just as she decided that she was going to do better. How many times do we have to hear this? It could be she is on track at school (I'll check in with her counsellor on Monday) these past three weeks (new marking period started). Her therapist had suggested she live away from us for a bit and apparently suggested that again to her when she called him a couple days ago. Maybe this is an opportunity to send her to a boarding school, WOwparent? .
As for your talk. I have to admit, I'd have been shocked if you told me it went well. We tried so many times and always ended up being blamed for something. These kids like control and are not willing to take responsibility for their problems. I'm guessing that if we compared our kids' psychological evaluations they'd come out very much the same. The boarding school thing was a hard decision. I saw the need long before my husband was willing to accept it and I imagine it will be the same for you and your husband since he's the co-dependant/enabler. Interestingly, I believe having our son away has been much harder on me than on my husband. I didn't stop the daily tears until the past week or so. I detect a change in our son's voice (now that we're talking weekly) and it's so nice. Despite the fact that he was on speakerphone he reciprocated when his sister told him she loved him and missed him. I could tell it was sincere. He won his round in the chess tournament so now he's helping the teacher in charge with all the details and actually helping to monitor it. Your therapist has more than likely seen enough kids to know when it's time to get them out of the home situation. You know, our son's friends told us that he'd said he felt the need to get away. I know exactly what you're doing and why since we did the same things. It's called grasping at straws, hoping you're not going to face what you know is more than likely inevitable. I remember the trips to the counselors at school. I also know that he started each new grading period in decent shape but rapidly declined when things got tougher and required more of his time. We were devastated about the thought of screwing up our son's future. We worried about the quality of education he'd get. We got his PSAT scores yesterday and they were very, very high. He Math score was in the 96th % nationally, yet he'd managed to fail pre-Calc his Sophomore year. He took the PSAT just a couple of days before he left for wilderness and I'm certain his mental state was not what it should have been. But we're satisfied with the fact that he'll graduate high school on time. He's already talking about college and we know he'll start next time with a clear head and a solid foundation of responsible behavior. I would ask my therapist about therapeutic boarding schools as opposed to standard boarding schools. Our son's school has computers but no internet access and that was critical to us both. Also, he's in our home state. That allows us to visit him more easily, although it is a 5 hour drive. We will have our first visit next weekend and I'm so anxious to see him again! But most importantly, this addiction spawns behaviors that do now allow for success in the real world. Oh, how I feel for you and what you're going through. I remember feeling as though I was nothing but a target in my home and everybody was taking shots at the same time. I hope for your sake that your husband will soon accept where you are. At some point, the addiction takes over and you have two choices with a minor child. You either do something like we did or you continue to do what you're doing at home. The minor child part is critical. All kids know they can leave at 18 and that they are legally responsible for themselves, i.e. you can kick them out if they don't follow the rules. Minor kids know that you suffer more than they do...truancy, behavior, grades, etc. When our son was at the point your daughter is we simply unplugged the computer and took it away. The others in the house were password protected so he couldn't use them. But just in case, we'd blocked the URLs for any and all websites through which he could access WoW. His account was canceled and we took control, and you're going to have to take that sort of drastic measure if you choose to keep her at home. Otherwise, she will continue to spiral downward. Sadly, without intense help she will escalate those inappropriate behaviors at home, too. We knew we couldn't handle our son at home any more. That was the long and the short of it. We needed help and it had to be 24/7. I have no regrets about sending him, only that we were forced to make that decision. I do know, however, that it was a decision made for him, not for us. I believe someday he'll realize it...at least I hope so!
I am not sure the therapist would know about the therapeutic boarding schools. I am concerned that she says she is doing what she needs to now in terms of school but it won't last long. Then, if it doesn't, I have no doubt she is going to blame us: "I was getting myself together, until you started bugging me about ......" It's always our fault! I find it ironic that she says she wants autonomy and then does not show that she can handle it--like quitting the job she had to play the game--though she would deny that too. So remind me how long between trying to help him (your son) and sending him away at home? How old is he? How long has he been away now? I hope they do eventually understand that we are trying to help them and that it is because we love them. I must confess, I think life would be a lot less stressful on a day to day basis if we weren't having to deal with the fallout from this everyday. Thanks so much for the support, especially since my husband seems to think I'm spending too much time on this site. I pointed out that I am not messing up with my responsibilities: you know, going to work, getting things done at home, adding therapy to it and starting a creative writing class.
Our son got Wow for Christmas (from us!) December, 2004, his freshman year. He'd just turned 15. His grades dropped during 2nd Semester. I now know that he had leveled to 60 by that summer, stopped playing with the gaming friends I actually knew and joined a hard-core guild. Early into his Sophomore (2005) year he was failing 4 classes. He turned 16 in October. He wasn't interested in driving! We removed the internet adapter but discovered he'd borrowed/bought/stolen another. We took the CPU away and he "blew" for the first time. Pyschiatrists, school counselors, depression meds and therapists later he improved slightly. Hubby let him start again in Nov. '05 just after a major surgery. It went back and forth a number of times. Grades improved, he got it back. He got it back, grades dropped. I might mention that his behavior was great as long as he had his game, when he wanted it. Only when we put limits or time restraints on it did he get angry and begin the blame game. He ended up failing 2 classes Sophomore year. We'd removed the game again in April/May '06 but hubby gave it back. In fall 2006, the "last straw" fell into place and broke my husband's back. This time, he was in a charter school, getting an Associate's degree concurrently with his HS diploma. He took control the day before his 17th birthday. As soon as we took it away, the enraged behavior began. He thought he was entitled to it because he'd invested HIS time. He started skipping school, using it as a means to get the game back. We'd had enough. He was in wilderness therapy exactly 10 days after his 17th birthday. Google therapeautic boarding schools and you'll find some listed. Don't even bother with wilderness, if you want my opinion. If you're going to go the boarding school route, go straight there and save yourself 30k+. We didn't expect our son to need therapy after wilderness. Boy, were we wrong. This addiction is a strong one and just doesn't want to let go. Listening to your story with your daughter is like listening to a broken record...the times and place are different, but the story is the same. Yes, things are much more peaceful with him gone. The chaos is reduced, but the pain is just as bad, if not worse. When you make that move, it's admission that you're powerless over the addiction, too. And no matter what, you tend to remember the kid you lost, not the one you didn't know, the addicted one. It's the one you remember as the "real" child that you mourn. I do think that this is a very viable option. By the way, my son's school has recently accepted another 17 year old boy...addicted to WoW. They follow a 12-Step type program but it is not Christianity based. The higher power is whatever they choose it to be.
I can so relate to the back-and-forth, temporary improvement to get the game back and then failing again pattern. I doubt she's doing all that well the first three weeks of the term. Check with ALL of her teachers, not just her counselor. If they do say she is doing well this term, give them your e-mail address and ask them to e-mail you immediately at the first missed class, missed assignment, or the first test or paper that is not up to her usual standards. This part of it at least is a lot easier with a high school student than it is with a college student. Once they get to college, parents become persona non grata to everyone--student, teachers, counselor. Some of them will talk like they genuinely want to help you but can't, and others will practically laugh in your face and gloat over the fact that they don't have to tell you ANYTHING.
"Small service is true service while it lasts. Of humblest friends, bright creature! scorn not one
The daisy, by the shadow that it casts,
Protects the lingering dewdrop from the sun." -------William Wordsworth
Believe me, sometimes I wish we (college profs) could share with parents. New legislation prevents us from sharing info. As a parent it has been incredibly frustrating to not know how our older daughter was doing in college. When you are footing the bill, it is all the more maddening. I am determined to not pay for college until this one gets her act together. Yes, I will plan on emailing her teachers too.
One thing I learned in my long odyssey to find out what was going on with my kid is that all a parent needs to do to get info from college profs is to produce a copy of the first page of their 1040 showing that the kid was listed as a dependant in the last tax year. Unfortunately, i didn't find that out until after i jumped through all the hoops to get the info via signed consent from my kid (who of course had a million excuses for why he hadn't gotten around to signing the form) No one at my son's U. seemed to know that, though it's listed in the FERPA info section on many university websites (juat google "FERPA 1040"). If parents come to you with concerns about how their kids are doing academically, rather than just tell them you can't talk to them, you could suggest they fax you a copy of the 1040 with the income info blacked out. I wish someone had told us that. The other thing I wish is that all college students would be asked on admission if they are claimed as a dependant on their parents' return. All you would have to do would be to give them a Yes or No box to check on a form and you could talk to most of the parents anytime you want. This really should be standard policy at all universities, and the fact that it's not just reinforces my impression that the overwhelming sentiment at most universities (with the exception of a small number of faculty such as yourselves who really do care) is MYOB.
I could write a book about what we went through when our kid got into trouble, and you can bet there are thousands of parents just like us out there somewhere navigating the same jungle.
"Small service is true service while it lasts. Of humblest friends, bright creature! scorn not one
The daisy, by the shadow that it casts,
Protects the lingering dewdrop from the sun." -------William Wordsworth
For those of you have been following this thread: a new development. You'll recall that my husband and I have a difference of opinion on how to "parent" our daughter regarding the WoW. On Saturday, we had an almost 2 hour session with our therapist (mine and husband's) and at the end of it, I had basically decided to back off and let him have his way--which is essentially do nothing differently. He is reluctant to impose limits. However, I did also say in the session that if it came to be a point where I could not handle the situation (be so anxious and upset that I could not function), I might have to be away for a bit (find someplace else to stay). The next day--by Sunday night--he decided that he could not tolerate the situation and although he expressed some ambivalence, he decided that he wanted to limit her time on the game. I asked him to take ownership of it if that's what he wanted and I'll support him but again reminded him about being clear about consequences--including rewards. He generated a list and we were going to talk to our daughter but some other stuff got in the way. As it happens, our appointment with our therapist was moved to tonight, so we got to talk to her about his change of heart and what he had come up with. We also talked about making it clear that he doesn't feel railroaded into doing something that he doesn't really believe works. In any case, he expressed his ambivalence but again said that he'd reached a point where something had to change. He brought his list to the therapist and we sat and worked through the list TOGETHER but with him always being asked first to make a proposal. All about ownership again. I again stated my preference but a willingness to go along with this and support it. I feel this is enormous progress on our part. It feels good for US not to be "fighting" each other about this. The next step is how to approach her about what the new expectations are and consequences for meeting or not meeting them. On the positive side, she has spent a little time with us and I saw her doing some artwork instead of being on the game when I came home yesterday (I congratulated her). She also said she took steps to fix some failing grades--I know she did for one course--ended up with a C but I am just glad she took this step. On the negative side, she pushed some boundaries again the other night--she's supposed to be off the internet by 10:30 on school nights. Her dad got steamed and pulled the plug on her. Therefore, we are a bit anxious about whether our new expectations would set back the little progress we have seen. We expect anger for sure, how severe is another question. Our therapist suggested that we bring our daughter in and we all sit together to do this--thus deflecting some of the expected hostility to the therapist. She (our therapist) was open to talking to our daughter's counselor prior to the family session. We have provided our permission. We feel that it is essential that we all work together to accomplish the same goal. I do hope that we can get our daughter's therapist on board with our plan. Our family meeting is this Saturday and our daughter's therapy is next Thursday. So we'll see. I know I haven't said much about the plan but it involves a limited amount of time per week on the game. I know that some of you don't feel that really works but I think the "compromise" is progress so long as we stand united and follow through. I think in some respects, my husband is at the end of his rope with all of this. Really trying to take one thing at a time.
[size=14]I think based on your husbands reluctance to act up till now, the fact that he has actually made the transition to taking action to limit the play time is a HUGE step in the right direction. You do need to be on the same page. At least he is starting to see that his page was not working. As for limiting on-line game time, if your daughters problem is as bad as it seems, then the new limits set by your husband may well bring the situation to even more of a head based on her reactions. Good luck, I am pulling for you ![/size]
" ... don't question it just go" "... where the body goes the mind will follow"
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Borrowed from "Desire to Stop"
I agree, I think you are taking the right approach. I think it unlikely that the compromise will work in the long term. But its all win-win. If it works, and he was right all along, it means you have your daughter back, and that's a win. If it doesn't work, and you were right all along, it means that he will be able to come to your point of view and then you can work still better as a team. I am glad that things have improved. This is a phase in a long, hopefully very happy life together. Everyone knows that rough spots come, and if you work together, go. I hope that everything works out for the best. Good luck to you. :|
Leveling in Real Life
Sounds like progress in the right direction. It's a slow process. Good luck.
"Small service is true service while it lasts. Of humblest friends, bright creature! scorn not one
The daisy, by the shadow that it casts,
Protects the lingering dewdrop from the sun." -------William Wordsworth
It's progress! And I am totally in agreement...as long as you're together, it's a win no matter how it turns out. I really do hope that moderation works for her. We're pulling for all of you!
Thanks everyone. I do feel a bit less tense but a little anxious about Staurday. I don't think he's told her yet about Saturday. I haven't either. It might be best for both of us to do so? What do you think? Thanks especially for pointing out the win/win. I guess we just all want our normal family life back.
Update for those of you following this thread.
Our daughter refused to go with us to our therapist on Saturday, saying that she was not feeling well. We went and came to an agreement with therapist to try again with her on Tuesday (yesterday). The deal was we tell our daughter about Tuesday's appt and if Tuesday came and she did not go, we say no internet until she went to the therapist with us. As it turns out, on Sunday (early a.m.--3 to be precise) we had an incident. I got up, checked in on her only to find she was on line playing. I told her she needed to go to bed. When I told her dad she was still on, he said he had told her to go to bed at around 1 just before he went to bed. At that time she said she was going in a minute. I suggested he might want to get her off. I went to the bathroom, then opened our bedroom door and seeing the light was on, I told her that if she wasn't off in a minute that I'd unplug her. She said her dad already had, so I went back to bed. Then I got out just to check--she had plugged herself back in. I unplugged her and took the modem into our room with me. She was in our room within seconds demanding I give it back and started throwing things around. All of this commotion led to her going downstairs to take a handful of pills (painkillers). Her dad followed her to the kitchen, I heard some scuffling as he tried to get her to spit them out. I went to help and got her to spit them out. Eventually all of this settled down and we all went to bed. When she got up around noon, all seemed okay, until she asked about the internet access. When her dad said she could get back on at 6 if she was civil for the rest of the day, she got mad, then again attempted pills and when that did not work, out came a knife which her dad took away from her. Soon after, items in the house started flying--she was throwing things around. We called 911 and got her to the hospital where we spent more than a day before taking her to a mental health facility where she is now. Not quite sure how long ( maybe a week) she'll be there. Saw her with an on-site therapist yesterday. At first she seemed pleased to see us. By the time we had our 15 minutes with her, she was sullen and angry. We return tomorrow for another visit with the on-site therapist and her. Meanwhile, we see our therapist tomorrow to discuss what next. Her therapist wonders what his role is at this point. We are planning on a team meeting (at least that's what my husband and I decided and will approach the therapists and our daughter about this). Husband is not sure how to proceed at this point--take the game away alltogether or the "gradual approach". After Sunday, he was stunned and was saying that he thought it might be a good time to take it all together. Now wants feedback from therapists. Our daughter is fine, the house is peaceful but I must say I'm sad to have had to leave her there. On the other hand, I'm all to fearful that we have little time in which to help her, especially since reading some of the posts from the young adult addicts here. No one but me thinks she is addicted. My husband has come to see that there is a huge problem. He seems to think at this point that the level she is at in the game creates a lot of social pressure for her to stay in and that in such circumstances, it is unlikely that she is going to be able to self-regulate. After she got the expansion (WoW), she seemed to quickly level up to 70. My guess is she was on a raid on Sunday and maybe why she was so out of control. I don't understand enough about the game to know why after reaching this level, she is still so consumed by it. I can't help but think too that there are underlying real world issues she has to deal with (not just with us but with friends). It saddens us that she has retreated from everything and everyone besides the friends who also play.
You don't know. Maybe her character diied and she HAD to get back to her death locale to get her stuff, and now its lost forever, since you so rudely denied it. When people are taking pills and knives if they can't play, its not a game any more. Its an obsession. Your husband differs with you on whether that obsession is the same as an addiction, but if you are working together on a way to deal with it, whatever it is called, things will work out for the best.
Leveling in Real Life
Yes, I think after her reaction on Sunday, he clearly saw that her response was way out of all proportion to the sanction we imposed. At some other time, she might have gotten angry or annoyed and just gone to bed. He really was stunned. I have to keep thinking that things will work out despite the profound sadness I'm experiencing right now.
Wow, scary stuff. So glad she's safe. The personality changes these games create are truly frightening. I hope this will convince Dad that this is no longer just a pastime or a way for her to relax and unwind, and I hope the therapists at the inpatient facility have some knowledge of gaming addiction. As awful as the last few days have been, this could be the beginning of better days. I hope you will be able to get everyone on the same page to cut off the game completely now. Hugs and prayers.
"Small service is true service while it lasts. Of humblest friends, bright creature! scorn not one
The daisy, by the shadow that it casts,
Protects the lingering dewdrop from the sun." -------William Wordsworth
Thanks for your support. Unfortunately, the admitting nurse doesn't even know about the game. I'll have to see if the on-site therapist knows anything.
I just wanted to maybe give a little understanding on the bahviour part. When I was still very very addicted I remeber one thing very well - there was no way I could talk to my mum. An innocent question like 'what are you doing' when I was playing ( my parents decided it was better if I move out) made me put the phone down. I was angry. I realise now that its because I felt guilty and ashamed. I had a lot of RL issues back then and to be honest I also felt very very much alone. If I coudlnt share my wow with my parents there was no way I coudl share my personal life. Its hard for you because no matter what you do right now she will feel misunderstood. Thing is I was nto myself back then it still scraes me how I could act like that. When I sorted my life out I went to see my parents and I felt so reliefed that I can breath around thema and that I can talk to them and that I dont feel angry any more. From me to you I know you knwo this but I think its always good to say : she loves you a lot shes just very caught up right now and she really is very much alone. Dont go to symapthetic on her though after this - addicts be ruthless we use that too. ps: also as far as I know 31 days played is 31 days played ( I for example have a total of 59days played on my main character and Im pretty sure Ive played that much... afk doesnt count ure still in the game unless u have excessive periods of afk when you actually do somethign wothwhile)
"Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans."
Thank you for that perspective. I know she feels misunderstood and yes, I think she feels alone, especially since she has alienated herself from many of her former friends. Our therapist pointed out that we should let her know how unacceptable her violent behavior was. I have been so sad more than anything else, I have not raised the issue of the injury she caused. I'm afraid that although I hoped that after this her dad might say "no more game", it looks like we are not going that route. He wants to do the gradual approach. I am afraid that it won't work. Meanwhil it looks like she'll be in the hospital for another few days. I didn't quite understand the ps--if she said that she was logged in but not playing, what does that mean?
Well theoretically she could be logged in but on the web browser looking at forums etc (you do get logged out after a while though by the game). But basically even if you stand around and seem to be doign nothing thats when a lot of the soical aspect of the game starts ( as in tells from friends etc) lets face it is still the game. Its hard to accept the amount of time you've played I mean hell 31 or 59 days sounds scary! I do hope she feels better hospitals arent to nice either! Unfortunetly theres not a lot you can do to make her feel understood. I know that even if my parents tried to be casual about the game and show some interest it annoyed me. And if I did end up doing something like art instead of playing and Id get a congrats on it boy id steam - because it proves that doing somethign else isnt normal for me right now and commenting on it makes u feel guilty and abnormal then again it is a way to make her face the reality - i think im confusing u probably :) Anyway its more the hate to herself then to you that is causing this. I mean imagine this: Im here. I like playing wow. I think its great fun. I have loads of friends there. I accomplish something. I learn guild structures/leadership skills/teamwork. But.... I look around the world where most ppl go out. Have friends that they can see almost any time they wont. Their achievments are real and lead somewhere not only in the game. They party! Still... I like the game Now this makes you feel very very bad to say the least. Inadequet, low self esteem, different (abnormal), lonely (becasue noone else will understand). Then again your community there seems to understand (although it is rare to find true friends there), you get to run away run run and not think about all sorts of problems and you dont realise youre only creating more. Its a lot of very contradictory and tearing apart emotions. and you confront her with this abnormal behaviour. You stick it in her face and thats good because although she might think she hates you when shes alone at night and noones watching she WILL wonder if maybe you're right. Of course there will be a lot of denial ...Im not sure what her coping processes are but takign into account gender differences Im pretty sure she thinks about it a lot more than a boy would. Because when parents say things it usually really leaves an impact although you might never get to see how big it is. Wow I really cheer for you here! Ill keep following if you keep posting I send you lots and lots of hugs! < 3 My
"Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans."