And so freedom to disagree is not tolerated either?

I have not seen your first post.

What did it say?

I missed it too.
Still, however, "Free Press" and free speech are concepts that are dwindling in this country on a regular basis.

I have deleted my share of posts here over the past three years, but it's been at least a year since I've had to delete anything. It's never been because I've disagreed with someone. I can deal with people disagreeing with me and pointing out errors and even criticizing me.

But those times when I have deleted posts, it's been because the posts were personal attacks, completely off topic or because they were written to intentionally cause problems.

Do we have personal issues? Hell yes, that's why we are here in the first place.

I'm proud of my issues... they took years to cultivate :P

Ron

Ron Jaffe AKA Diggo McDiggity
Discussion Board Administrator
On-Line Gamers Anonymous

Free speech doesn't mean that you get to come into a private space like this one and harass people, not that I'm saying that's what the OP did. The OP is free to start his own site and say whatever he wants about online gaming and how harmless it is. He does not even have to have a way for others to comment on his ideas. BTW, I personally realize that online games are here to stay and have nothing against them, except that people need to be aware that approximately 10% of users will likely become addicted. It's a real problem that affects real people.

Which came first, personal problems or problem gaming is a chicken and egg question. I have read that certain personality traits make some people more susceptible. I don't think that everyone who gets addicted is wretchedly unhappy or completely neurotic. For someone with an 'addictive personality' just a bit of extra stress might be enough to get them hooked. Then the problem gaming just keeps on ratcheting up the stress level by causing problems in real life causing the addict to dive further and further into their 'unreal' life.

Anyhoo, there can't be that many people with the ability to delete others posts on this site; it should be easy to figure out who deleted it and why.

Edited by: boredhousewife677 at: 7/26/05 18:23

Hello choronzon,

Thanks for sharing what happened.

We do know that some people do use gaming as an escape from their real life, rather than just as a social activity. We are suggesting they go back to their real life, so they can get it straightened out, so they can live there again. That takes time and work and pain, which they will not have if they continue to live in their fantasy world. They will never go back. Sooner or later, they are not going to have anyone left to take care of them, so they can keep on gaming. Than what? The gaming has got to go first, before they will look at what they are running from.

I am glad you were able to get things straightened out in your real life, and are able to live there, again. How did you do it, if you were playing games all of the time? Suggestions to help others are always welcome!

Liz

Quote:My marriage sufferred as did my health. However - I can honestly say that if I did not have a PC and the ability to escape into 'different reality' during that time that I may well have not been here today.You know, in fact, that is probably the case for many of us. When my father was dying of cancer and then finally passed away, my PC was my savior. The problem was that once I was playing so much for so long a period of time... I forgot how to get back. The game was predictable, controllable and didn't have any of the pains that my real life had. It hurt too much facing my real life challenges so I stayed in-game. Meanwhile, my life crumbled around me as a result instead of dealing with things as I should have.
I'm glad you were able to get back on track and that your gaming helped you through those tough times. That's one of the things that games are for and it's no surprise during any nationwide crisis that entertainment venues reap huge profits.

As for what I'm assuming your initial point was...that we are treating the symptom rather than the problem, I realize that it can seem that way. But I think if you look a little deeper into our quagmire of posts, you'll see that we mentioned that excessive/compulsive gameplaying is really a symptom of deeper issues and that to really get your life back on track you have to address and fix those deeper issues. That is not easy and can take a lifetime to do in some cases.

Welcome to the site, Choronzon!

Ron

Ron Jaffe AKA Diggo McDiggity
Discussion Board Administrator
On-Line Gamers Anonymous

I deleted it.

One does not go into an AA site and debate alcoholism.

It is in poor taste.

Since two admins have responded to this particular thread, I shall leave THIS thread alone.

But any other threads that I find on this topic, are gone.

We won't have a flame war on this site, ever again.

I put a copy of this post back here, as I would like to hear how Choronzon was able to get back to his real life, after he used the games as an escape.

Liz

Choronzon, from your post above it doesn't really sound like you were addicted. I was. I too used an online game to escape the stress of increased financial pressure, and starting a new job, after being home with my kids for 8 years. My financial situation was not anywhere near as dire as yours. Still, my online gaming caused problems for me and my family. It made things worse, not better, and even though I knew that at some level, I didn't stop until I found this site and confirmed to myself that I was an addict.

You need to keep it your gaming in check. A lot of people deny that an activity is causing issues in their lives, when it really is.

Also, I know of a lot of spouses who have given up and started playing the games, just so they do have a chance to see their S.O.

You may want to ask your wife once in a while, if she thinks gaming is causing issues in your relationship, and see what can be done about it. Maybe should would like to see you in person, rather than on the game....

Liz

Sigh...

Not all flame wars are white-hot.

Some just simmer waiting for a spark, like a blog mentioning olganon or a news report on FOX, etc...

And then threads like this one, debating the relative merits of gaming for some people, become the fodder for perhaps as many as two hundred avid gamers to use in a revived, blistering collection of posts that can take weeks to fix.

However well intentioned the individual poster, however carefully crafted the pro and con debate points, sooner or later this thread will be twisted into the heart of a flame war.

If it is still here when the next story comes out mentioning olganon.

This isn't personal, Coranzon. You seem like a pretty smart, rational guy. But there have been fifty, a hundred other people just like you who have posted essentially the same set of talking points. Some prefer to discuss how specific companies, such as Sony, should not be held responsible for their player's overindulgence, and that anyone who disagrees is unamerican or anti-capitalism or just plain wrong. Others come out with the idea that this website is somehow involved in apostlizing the one true faith that gaming is sinful or wrong, and that we should leave people well enough alone. Still others emphasize that personal responsibility for one's own actions is all that matters, ignoring the fact that this is an essential feature of all twelve step programs including ours. Others challenge the premise that gaming is addictive, period, making unflattering comparisons between this and, say, the chemically-induced heroin addiction.

We have heard it all already, Coranzon. And we know what will happen, sooner or later, when another group of avid, angry gamers descend on this site again, as has happened several times before.

So if I tend to delete "discussion" threads a little more quickly than others, it is not without reason.

I just wanted you to know why.

My two cents.

To answer the original post, yes people can be banned for disagreeing with the site admins, even if they have valid points (I should know ).

This is a privately run forum and it is the site owners right to have the information on it be as biased as they want in whatever direction they want. They can choose what will be discussed and what will not, when, where, etc, all of this even to the point of banning users or hiding posts without warning.

Their site, their rules, such is life.

Freedom of the press and all that good stuff does not apply to privately run forums...(rightly so, it is not the Govts place to infringe on the rights of the site owner)

You'll have to start your own site if you want to use your rights...

My name is _____ and I was banninated for disagreeing with the OLGANON Admins.

HI _____!!

PS: Don't worry, other than this minor infraction I will continue to accept my bannation...

Edited by: Banninated at: 8/31/05 23:16

Oh, is this Smukatele?

I could think of a few others it could be, too, Liz...

Yes Liz, tis I.

Do you want to try again?

I would enjoy being able to post again as Smukatele, however keep the following in mind when making your decision.

I still disagree with all the "bandaid" fixes espoused in this forum through the removal of responsibility from the individual, whatever the reason. The only exception to this being that parents are responsible for their children.

I still agree with the fundamental purpose of the site, helping the addicted gamer.

I believe that I am representing an important part of the balance in addicted gamer recovery, a view that is not expressed very often by the others on this site. About the most that is ever said along my viewpoint is that the root problem needs to be found and corrected, not just the symptoms, something Diggo does mention every so often. That is the basic premise I am going by here, I just tend to be a little more verbose and less tolerant of what I view as nonsensical opposition when I say it.

Edited by: Banninated at: 9/1/05 18:18

Well, try to bear in mind that whether one agrees with the 12 step process or not, they are all about taking personal responsibility. In fact, one cannot begin the 12 Steps unless he takes personal responsibility to do so.
Another thing to keep in mind, and I hope this doesn't sound harsh because it's not meant to be... it's not your responsibility to 'make' other people 'see' the light.Quote:I believe that I am representing an important part of the balance in addicted gamer recovery, a view that is not expressed very often by the others on this site.Also bear in mind, this view is expressed by myself quite regularly and I would hope that my opinions at this point would carry some weight.
Look, here's the deal...

When someone finally decides to take control of his life, his life is a screwed up life of chaos...often, anyway. He has already made the decision to take control and take personal responsibility to fix things. Things are hard enough without listening to someone who isn't walking down that same path telling him things that he already knows.

When I reached the point where I had to do something, I knew it was up to me. I didn't need some 'shlub' telling me what's right and what's wrong - if you aren't in my shoes buddy, they keep your yapper shut. And again, not directing this only to you, Smukatele.

Similary, it's not our responsibility to 'make' people 'heal' themselves... we are just trying to provide different outlooks, tools and experiences to help others who may be in similar circumstances...and make no mistake...every situation is different. I cannot understand Liz's personal experiences anymore than she can understand mine. I was never a parent, and she never spent 36 hours sitting in Sol-B waiting for Ragefire to spawn and then have the spawn Ninja'd out from underneath.

My point is this. Consider if you would ever walk into an A.A. meeting and tell them that they are going about things the wrong way...and that oh yeah, you aren't an alcoholic. You would probably be beaten to death with a folding chair. That's not to say that they are going about everything the right way, but it IS to say that they are trying and over time as their healing process goes this way and that...the right way and the wrong way..they will eventually reach their desired goal IF they want to and IF they commit to reaching it.

Consider that a commercial jetliner is off course 90-95% of the time. It's through small adjustments over time that it eventually reaches its proper destination.

So it is with gamers whose lives have been through the wringer and who are looking to make some sense of it all.

I will validate your points, Smukatele. I think you are mostly right on in what you are saying. I don't think there is a gamer anywhere who deep down inside doesn't believe he or she is solely responsible for what has happened to his or her life from gaming. But it's a shame factor we each have to deal with and that is hard enough without someone who isn't experiencing the same thing pointing that out.

Ron

Ron Jaffe AKA Diggo McDiggity
Discussion Board Administrator
On-Line Gamers Anonymous

Edited by: Diggo McDiggity at: 9/2/05 9:37

"Also bear in mind, this view is expressed by myself quite regularly and I would hope that my opinions at this point would carry some weight."
I did specifically mention you as doing just that in my post.

I think you best summed up your point when you said "it's not your responsibility to 'make' other people 'see' the light."
I think that most of your post was a variation of that theme. Heres the thing. People come here looking for help, meaning that they have a somewhat open mind as far as things to use for help and what their problem really is. There are times on this board when they are told(directly or indirectly) that it is (partly)not their fault, its the fault of the psychologists, the corporations, or some other scapegoat. They are being 'made' to 'see' the wrong light.

As individals are the ones who have the final and complete decision whether to play or not, it is vitally important that those individuals realize this and take control of their lives, not try to set up a system of blame which could lead to a lapse back into the addiction due to the fact that they never hit the real reason for their problems, not to mention the system of blame could lead to even more Govt interference. I am very strongly against our Govt Nanny System which gets worse every day, we do not need anyone encouraging it.

I am not an outsider who does not know what they are going through, as I have said, I have been there. Your anology to AA would be a little better if my character was the guy who had "graduated" last week and came back, saw that they had changed the course and left out the most important part needed to help people. No beatings involved.

I did make other points on this board, this particular one just seems to be a little more inflammatory than the others.

Did you notice we lost all of your posts in the ez-board melt down?

I did, and although you were very distraught about all the lost posts, I have a funny feeling you didn't feel all that bad about mine going missing...

The impression I get is that points about pshycologists and game experts are used to demonstrate that the games ARE addictive. It's a hard concept to grapple with if you haven't been there yourself. I really struggled to understand how a gaming could be so all-consuming or classified as an addiction.

Cigarette companies use all there resources to market their product the best way possible to attract their target audience, primarily youth. That teenagers take up smoking and get addicted isn't the company's direct responsibility, they're just "providing a product". But they create a market and create a desire for an addictive product that is marketed attractively so as to mask the reality of the product and the effects of its consumption.

Individual responsibility must be taken of course, but isn't it useful to understand the person's behaviour in a wider context of the culture of gaming and development and marketing? A culture encouraging excessive consumption to push up profit margins. Economic success takes precedence over ethical practices in corporations *Shakes fists @ capitalism*. That companies aim to make their games addictive isn't "immoral" in economic terms, it's strategic. But whether you BLAME them or not doesn't change the fact that these games are designed to encourage addiction.

So when people find themselves having ruined there lives since being off in a fantasy world, although it's there own doing, isn't it at least comforting to know that they're not alone, that it's an addictive practice that can detract from deeper issues etc..? The same way as people understand that cigarettes are addictive, but we must take responsibility for our own smoking.

There my thoughts...
(I have been s non-smoker for 2 weeks now! Yay me.)

Hurley
I would love to respond however my bannation has not been lifted and so I do not have permission. Sorry

For me, whether gaming companies particularly go out of their way to make their games addictive, using psychologists or whatever, was never really an issue. Any reasonable person would understand that in order to keep someone playing and 'paying', these companies need to put in whatever hooks they can to keep people coming back month after month. But I think focusing on that point as being the sole cause of problem of excessive compulsive gaming is missing the boat.
As kind of a weird analogy - During sea turtle egg-laying season here in Florida, you can walk the beach at night but aren't supposed to use heavy lights to see them because the turtles are attracted to the light. Well that's what I thought, but I was instead told by a marine biologist that it's not that they are attracted to the light, it's that they are running away from the dark. I thought about this for a bit because it seemed like the same thing to me, but after a bit I saw a difference.

With gaming for many people (not all) it's not that gaming is addictive or so attractive, it's just that it eventually becomes easier and a place to escape the 'darkness' of one's life and life problems, relationships, crappy job, etc. The problem comes that when someone spends too much time gaming, his life tends to get worse and worse ... a downward spiral. This is why someone can get equally wrapped up in any activity that is more appealing than the 'darkness' of one's life. See the analogy? It's just that because this is a gaming website, our focus is on gaming, but really any activity is similar...the method of recovery may differ a bit for each, however.

Attempting to repair one's life requires more than just the removal of gaming from his daily routine..i.e. breaking his CDs, selling his computer, turning off the Internet, etc., but in learning to flood the darkness of his life with 'light' such as other activities, renewed friendships, educational pursuits, travel or even as Liz has been so chastised for saying, ... "rearranging one's makeup box." (Sorry Liz )

It's a big world out there.

Ron

Ron Jaffe AKA Diggo McDiggity
Discussion Board Administrator
On-Line Gamers Anonymous

Edited by: Diggo McDiggity at: 9/5/05 9:21

I like your 'weird kind of analogy' Ron. It's an interesting way of looking at it.

We like your Banninated name better....it gives you character.

Liz