Just to clarify a few points:
1. No, Liz never said that Shawn had a seizure after playing 72 hours straight that I ever saw, I have no idea where that rumor came from.
2. There is no lawsuit, there never was a lawsuit. Period.
3. I visited Liz for 4 days to go through Shawn's computer with a fine tooth comb looking for answers, which by the way is one of the things I do for a living. I found nothing to indicate specifically why he shot himself, but evidence did seem to point to it being something relating to EQ. Liz realizes and acknowledges this. She doesn't blame EQ or Sony directly, but when she first found Shawn, she knew nothing about EQ or the problems that many, many EQ players have who play excessively.
4. In my estimation, Liz is a competant, caring, loving parent. Family life at her house seemed normal, Shawn's younger brother was polite, well-behaved and socially active. All of the books of documents and research Liz has done since Shawn's death aren't about going after anyone in a lawsuit, they are about helping other gamers and families who have similar problems so that they can get help so they don't find what she found on Thanksgiving day last year. I paid close attention to the notes she had written on the borders of the pages she printed out.
5. I spoke in depth with Shawn's younger teenage brother. I asked in detail for him to explain about Shawn's life before EQ, how it was when he started playing, and how it changed after he started playing. The pattern was the similar to what I went through and similar to what many of you are going through. The changes in Shawn were drastic, and remember he was a legal adult at the time and Liz only had so much control that she could exert. I personally believe that Shawn had latent problems, but after having seen all the evidence first hand, I do believe that his gameplaying (not the game specifically...please note the difference here) contributed to his final decision to kill himself. Shawn was quiet, but he was socially active, he worked in a large pizza restaurant and hung out regularly with friends and his family until he started playing EQ. This is all documented, by the way.
6. Liz created OLGAnon to help gamers and the friends and families of gamers, period. Never has she mentioned anything having to do with Shawn on the website or this discussion board, except to answer the charges of those who came in blasting allegations about the 'lawsuit' that doesn't exist and which never existed. The only mention of Shawn is her dedication to him, discretely at the bottom of the homepage.
7. Liz has been in regular, amiable contact with Sony Online Entertainment and John Smedley to suggest ways in which EQ can be less caustic to individuals and their families without detracting from the playability and richness of the game. John has personally taken time out of his evenings and weekends to help Liz find answers to why Shawn killed himself. We find this encouraging as should you.
8. Neither Liz nor any of the volunteers at OLGAnon want to get rid of EQ or any other online games. We have no desire to villify MMORPGs because those of us who play(ed) them, love them. But that was the problem. My personal problem was not about addiction, I'm learning, but by a crappy set of priorities. Yet each of us is different and we played for different reasons.
9. To emphasize point 8 above, there is no agenda or crusade to change or get rid of online gaming. Play if you like, and enjoy the time you are playing, we just encourage you to be careful to keep your priorities straight so you don't go through what many of us went through. That's it. It's that simple...really.
10. Most of you have come here because of a news story you read, a website that had a story on Shawn, or because of a cross post of our URL on a guild message board or a flame board. Most of you have come here with preconceived notions of what we are doing here. And what's worse, many of you come here immediately blasting without taking the time to really read through the posts or talk to us first hand about what we are trying to do here. Liz has posted a telephone number for you folks to call her personally, 24 hours a day because she cares.
If you really feel strongly about something you read somewhere, at least have the courtesy and dignity to speak with her directly and ask her any questions you would like directly, either about Shawn, her parenting skills or anything relating to this. She's just an everyday person like you and I who has taken on the mission of helping those who have problems with gaming.
11. OLGAnon is not a religious organization. I, myself, am Wiccan, and the other volunteers range from Atheist to Jewish, as well as Christian. To consider OLGAnon as being a bible-thumping organization, is to be way off.
12. Each of us is responsible for our own actions and we take responsibility for our excessive gameplay. While we don't blame the game specifically, we do believe that there is 'something' inherent with the game that when combined with some people in the right situations, can lead to any number of serious problems that WE see on a daily basis. And while OLGAnon is about online gaming in general, the overwhelming number of problems that we see relate specifically to EQ. For those who admit to having problems with EQ, can you think of any other game that has had this much pull and influence?
13. We know that not everyone who plays EQ has problems with it. We know that not everyone who plays EQ for many hours a week has problems with it. It's not the number of hours one plays, but his association he makes with the game when he DOES play. Granted those who play over 100 hours a week or more, and there are many people who do that, probably do have some serious problems.
We know that many people are able to play a good number of hours per week and maintain relationships, friendships and raise children properly.This has never been a question.
14. If you feel the need to come here and post out of anger or frustration, then perhaps you have some issues which you are not acknowledging. Those who have no problems, would be indifferent to a site like this and probably wouldn't read but a post or two before moving on.
15. You are guests here and all are welcome. However we do have very clear, stringent rules for posting and we moderate this board closely. Don't expect the leniency of most message boards and that you should be able to post anything as you would on any flame board. Posts may be edited, moved or deleted without warning and those trolls and griefers who post vulgar and/or obscene posts or whose only intent is to instigate conflict, then those folks may, and probably will be banned from this board.
We are open to any comments or suggestions and have no problems with debating or arguing. We just ask that you think before you post and that you keep your posts on topic.
** One more point:
None of us, including Liz, get any sort of financial compensation for the time we spend here. It's all volunteer work because we really care about helping others. Some of us, like myself, have been in the trenches directly with the problems that can come from playing online games excessively. If you have problems yourself, please, come to us and let us know what you are experiencing and/or if you need help. My email is posted in every sig line of every one of my posts.
I hope this has cleared up some issues. If you take the time to really read what we are posting, most of you will see that we really are on the same page with regard to the issues here. Some of you might think that we are merely coddling or enabling the person to continue on his life as a victim, when the opposite is actually true. Don't mistake concern and support for enabling, however we realize that there is a fine line between them which is not always clear.
Thank you for your posts and your interest in our mission.
Diggo/Ron
Ron Jaffe AKA Diggo McDiggity
eMail: eqaddict@cfl.rr.com
Discussion Board Administrator
Everquest player from July, 1999 to April, 2002
Over 4,900 Hours Played
Co-Founder of OLGA and member since 2002
1.
It didnt say 72 hrs, but that quote was from Miss Wooly on the "You guys are a joke thread"
2. The papers and TV special said it was being concidered. That is where people are getting that from. Suing them to teach them a lesson and make them put warning lables on it. I am rather glad that it was decided against becaue it would have been even further embarassement and disrespect to someone's death. Did anyone really stop to think what Shawn would have said if he knew his mother was all over TV and the papers crying bloody murder about a game he loved so much.
3. She does blame Sony. She says in her quote that she doesnt blame herself or her son. He was playing the game as intended, however 450,000+ others of us seem to be able to play without physically harming ourselves or others.
4. Blaming others and going on TV and saying "You know what was on the screen THAT **** GAME". Isnt helping anyone, except give ammunition to the people who are blasting this site now.
5. If people noticed enough to document, they should have noticed and been involved enough to prevent.
6. Again, this is hypocritcle to what Ive seen on TV and read in the papers.
7. John is helping just as any parent would. Personally I find it annoying that after the blatent blasting of the game that 48 hours did, that anyone from SOE would help at all. John obvioulsy is a much more forgiving person that I would be.
8. And your broken CD collection thing does what again? Which one is it?
9. Again, the breaking CD thing? The fact that anyone who posts is automatically branded an addict in denial? How about the drones of people here who look down on people that still play telling them that they are addicted and should come back to the real world. Im finding these points to maybe be what you imagine the perfect site and board would be, not the actual one here.
10. I care too. I care about the people who play and have nothing wrong. I care about the kids who parents wont let them go and buy Everquest because their parents saw the TV report. I care about the uneducated preception people get because the squeeky wheel are the whiners not the players. I care too.
11. I have no comment about this. I would never bring this into the discussion as it has no direct connection
12. Lots of games have this much pull and influance. I remember Final Fantasy 7. When your girlfriend is slain, I actually felt emotionally upset about it. It was disturbing. The issue with EQ is the fact that there are so many people that play, the chance of finding these people that are not emotionally balanced enough goes up.
13. Its all realitive how much you play. Which is better, playing EQ for 6 hours or going out drinking with some friends? I guess going out has the aspect of face to face person interaction but Im also killing myself with liquor. So it comes down to which is the lesser of two evils.
14. I have listed my problems in number 10. I am angry because I have seen things tumble and fall because of a less commotion that the TV and paper reports have caused.
15. I agree. There is much room to be able to discuss, debate and even occationally flame without cursing and coming across as an immature juvinle.
I just would like to say something here about Liz. She has gone through a tragedy that nobody should have to go through. I would like to invite you all to put yourself in her shoes. She found her son dead next to the computer with the EQ screen up. Now just think for a minute if you found your son or daughter or any loved one dead by their own hand, wouldn't you want some answers? Her only clue at the time was the EQ game. I am sure she was angry at her son, herself, God, and yes EQ. All very normal reactions to the tragedy that was before her. Remember she is a mother who is grieving the loss of a son and wanting answers at the same time. Yes she did lash out at EQ/Verant, but again as a grieving mother one does not always do sane and thought out actions at this time.
Liz will probably always feel that EQ had some role in her son's death. And it is her right to feel this way as a grieving mother. But it should not get in the way of the work she and the rest of us are trying to do here at OLGAnon. The official stance of OLGAnon is not to put the blame on the game, but to look inside ourselves as to the root of the problem.
Let's face it, there are very very few people out there who are totally happy with their lives and EQ is a great way to hide from the unhappiness. We at OLGAnon are here to help you step away from the game in order to work on the real problem. We are here to open people's eyes that maybe just maybe spending excessive amount of time on the game is not a healthy way to live your life. We are here to help to bring balance back into your life. Liz is just the person who started it all because she was a grieving mother wanting answers to questions. I say give her a break.
Tosha
I just wanted to clear up Tosha's point to prevent the inevitable misinterpretation...
When he/she uses "you", it's a generic "you", meant to speak to those to whom it pertains. Tosha is not trying to speak directly to YOU Lelgolas, or ME Ulanji, or anyone specific. Nor is Tosha saying that everyone (or even a majority of people) who plays EQ fits in this category.
Am I right, Tosha? Sorry, but I have an "obsession" with clear, concise communication.
Yes YOU (Ulanji) are correct. My use of "you" is a general "you" to all that read the boards. I was not pointing fingers at any one person.
Thanks for clarifying that Ulanji.
Tosha
Well I am sorry to inform YOU but because she was the person in the papers and the person on TV blaming "that **** game" then that is how you will be precieved. You are known by your loudest voice, be it the consensus or not.
I was going to respond to your breakdown of the points I tried to make with my post here, but I figured, why bother. You are looking for absolutes in a world that is less than perfect, and in concentrating so much on the accuracy of every sentence posted, you fail to see the message behind them. My statements are as accurate as I can make them and are made without prejudice.
Lelgolas, I've made the suggestion that you contact Liz directly...a point which you've quietly ignored. But if you are still so concerned (angered as you said it) about the things that Liz has stated. Then call her.. Now, Today, Tomorrow...but call her.
What better way to address your concerns with the things she has stated than by contacting her directly? Because if you are not willing to do this, then why should the others here continue to read your posts?
Call her. 24 Hours a day and she'll speak with you amiably. (612) 245-1115
As for your comments about Smedley, I agree, he has been helpful. But the point I was making was not that he is a great guy, it's that while many of the people here think that she is going after Sony, I'm just trying to show that if that were the case, she wouldn't have been having regular, friendly conversations with him, and he wouldn't have invited her to come out to San Diego to tour the EQ facilities there.
Ron
Ron Jaffe AKA Diggo McDiggity
eMail: eqaddict@cfl.rr.com
Discussion Board Administrator
Everquest player from July, 1999 to April, 2002
Over 4,900 Hours Played
Edited by: Diggo McDiggity at: 12/11/02 2:23:11 pm
Co-Founder of OLGA and member since 2002
Diggo yah need to lay off the EQ lingo yo! Honestly I think "amiable" showed up in that posta 'lil too often. I would also hope that Ms. Wooley does not now scowl at you ready to attack since you have posted her telephone number on a (public)board full of angry EQ addicted miscreants Not that a switchboard search and some time couldn't have brought up those infos though...
-=x=-
"By now, you all may have noticed a new face amongst us. Without faces we'd all be blood spilling ghouls out of a horror film, by the way."
-Squee's teacher
I did ignore the idea of calling her, I really have no reason to do so. Even if talking to her retracts every single thing I have said here, the bottom line is that the press has been done, the headlines have been read, the 48 special has ended, the people who saw any of these have their opinions formed and would never think to call.
There are uneducated parents out there that would see that alone and not let their children play the game. There are uneducated adults out there that would steer clear of the game because of that press. The damage has been done. Anyone who would have seen that slander has now formed their opinions on it and will not bother to look further in.
So truthfully, I have said all I needed to in these posts. I feel no need to verbally express them as well. What I have seen and heard may not accuratly reflect on how things really are, it is how they are presented and how they are precieved not just by me, but by a majority of the others that read this as well.
Quote, Tosha:
"Remember she is a mother who is grieving the loss of a son and wanting answers at the same time. Yes she did lash out at EQ/Verant, but again as a grieving mother one does not always do sane and thought out actions at this time."
Then perhaps she should re-evaluate her views on her son's death. Running an anti-gaming site based on a tragedy of circumstance is absurd. Thats like me opening up an anti-plane board because of 9-11, or an anti-school board because of the Combine shootings. She has found a way to vent her grief for the loss of her son, and it is pathetic. She needs to deal with her loss in a more constructive way. Opening up an internet chat board is NOT constructive, it's destructive. Anyone who thinks the opposite is just kidding themselves.
Parents will find this site because their child is playing EQ for more time then they deem necessary. Instead of teaching their child SELF-CONTROL, they will yank the game out from under them, creating tention at home and an underlying desire by the child to play the game EVEN MORE.
And on another note, don't say for a MINUTE that this site is not anti-gaming. That is the stupidest crap that I EVER heard. Hello?!?! OLGA- ON LINE GAMERS ANONYMOUS. The fact that the moderators, the "head honcho", and the members can't find a common ground to stand on makes this site more and more hypocritical every minute.
Blood
Lets not forget about break your CD and return it program they have going...
To Xt0thaz, yeah I went a little strong on the word amiable. I'll edit it just for you
Lelgolas said,Quote:I did ignore the idea of calling her, I really have no reason to do so. Even if talking to her retracts every single thing I have said hereSo what you are saying is that the truth doesn't matter. Then if you don't care about the truth, why are you here?Quote:There are uneducated parents out there that would see that alone and not let their children play the game. There are uneducated adults out there that would steer clear of the game because of that press. Oh, you know that's a crock. I'm surprised the issue of warning label's hasn't come up yet, because if it did, you would say that warning labels wouldn't have any effect. In that case then, why would news stories have any effect. Tell me that you don't think that in fact, the stories probably drew more interest to the game than there would have been otherwise. C'mon, you can't have it both ways.Quote:The damage has been done. Damage? What damage? It's just a game, right?Quote:So truthfully, I have said all I needed to in these posts. I feel no need to verbally express them as well.Oh, you've had no problems with verbally expressing your opinions. I'm just disappointed with the fact that you are quite comfortable voicing strong opinions here and that you aren't even interested in making a short call to Liz to confirm whether the things you are saying are true or not. Disappointing.
Ron
Ron Jaffe AKA Diggo McDiggity
eMail: eqaddict@cfl.rr.com
Discussion Board Administrator
Everquest player from July, 1999 to April, 2002
Over 4,900 Hours Played
Co-Founder of OLGA and member since 2002
Quote:
***********
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There are uneducated parents out there that would see that alone and not let their children play the game. There are uneducated adults out there that would steer clear of the game because of that press.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh, you know that's a crock. I'm surprised the issue of warning label's hasn't come up yet, because if it did, you would say that warning labels wouldn't have any effect. In that case then, why would news stories have any effect. Tell me that you don't think that in fact, the stories probably drew more interest to the game than there would have been otherwise. C'mon, you can't have it both ways.
*************
You are way off base on this one. If anything is this world is manipulative it is the media. Where does 99% of Americans get their daily info? The news! When we want to know the daily weather, do we go to the weather station? No, we watch the news. When we want to see if anyone died in that fire down the street, do we go to the hospital? No, we watch the news. What the majority of short-sighted Americans believe is what they SEE. For example:
Remember a few decades ago when that gentleman read the war of the worlds thing over the radio? Where he said that aliens have landed? Even though it was total bogus, there was mass panic across the entire US.
What America sees and hears in the media is the TRUTH in their eyes. There is no other way for them to get information. If someone sees "EQ is addictive", then it is, regardess if it is the truth or not. The average citizen will not go buy EQ, play it for several months and make their own decision. They will accept what the media has told them and move on.
Blood
what I am saying is that if she goes out on TV and presents that is was "That **** game" that killed her boy, I could give a good **** about what she says to me on the phone. I post like this because it is public, that way everyone gets to see, not just two people.
Warning labels? Like the ones on cigarettes? The ones that you cant read until you buy the cigarettes because they are hidden off the shelves so kids dont steal them? People totally disreguard warning labels. It requires reading.
You cant be serious that it doesnt matter. How many parent watch TV, lots. How many read the side of the box about the game their kid is buying. Not very many. I believe EQ does carry the standard rating system deemed fit by the government though.
I know my aunt saw the report on EQ because she asked me about it. She said that it was scary that people where so addicted to the game and that she was glad her kids didnt have a computer yet to get involved in that kind of stuff... media friend... media...
The damage by the press and the damage by your number one TV star that has lead parents and other people who dont know to the conclusion that if your kid goes and buys EQ becareful because you are going to come home and find your kid has shot themself. That damage. Not hard to understand.
Well why cant Miss Wooly post on here her side of it? Why cant she retort to my strong opinions? She has posted on other threads but none of mine. I have never once presented anything but a mature and thought out response, yet I am not worthy of a reply. Instead she will reply to the easy flames from immature posts. Again taking the easy way out.
Like I said, I am posting here, in the publics eye. Just like the newspaper, just like the TV, just like everyone else. I am here for everyone to see. Why should I take my discussion with her behind closed doors? 48 hours felt the need to slant the report to make it look like EQ and SOE was the devil in computer game form and yet I am supposed to go and have a quiet little discussion? No way, no how.
Exctly Blood. Wich is why I find Diggo pretty lame in quoting Lego half-assed like he did with the "The dammage has been done" quote, if your gonna quote someone at least have the decency to take the whole quote...
Wich is this one:
Quote:There are uneducated parents out there that would see that alone and not let their children play the game. There are uneducated adults out there that would steer clear of the game because of that press. The damage has been done. Anyone who would have seen that slander has now formed their opinions on it and will not bother to look further in.
This is very clear and well written what is it you don't understand about it Diggo?
Another little point
Diggo wrote
Quote:You are looking for absolutes in a world that is less than perfect, and in concentrating so much on the accuracy of every sentence posted, you fail to see the message behind them.
No, not really. It would be much simpler If you would at least concentrate on making your point without all the contradictions being made in one post, then none of this would be happening. I am refering to Miss Wolley particulary, who seems to bounce back and forth with every post that she makes... It looks to me like she doesn't know wich side of the fence she's on
Take a look at these for example:
Quote:Originally posted by LizWool : No one is blaming EQ! We all agree, that there was something missing in the person's life, before they started playing the game, for the playing to get so out of control. That is a FACT!
Then she writes this:
Quote:Originally posted by LizWool : My son did not shoot himself because of a gun, he did it because of the affects of the game
She said in the article that "her son may have had other problems, but she thinks Everquest pushed him over the edge"
"Liz Woolley says that Everquest can be very dangerous. 'If somebody shoots themselves in front of a computer screen of this game, they're trying to say something', she says. 'You don't go sit in front of a computer game and shoot yourself if it didn't have something to do with the game.'"
Ah yes! The most famous quote of them all
Quote:Originally posted by LizWool : "That **** game. He shot himself because of the game."
So wich is it Liz? First you say EQ is not responsible for your son's death then you turn around and say things wich are totally diffrent...
Furthermore
Quote:Originally posted by LizWool : I invite you to continue coming to our board, and reading and sharing.
Ok, so this is what the majority of us are doing, reading and sharing our opinions, since miss Woolley invites us personally to her board
Then BAM! she contradics everything she just said above
Quote:Originally posted by LizWool : I am so sick of gamers coming in here, and saying the game is not addictive, when they are addicted to it, and couldn't stop, if they wanted to!
???.....Fist she invites us to come to her board to "read" and "share" and then the above quote speaks for itself
Shes also making ALOT of pathetic coments in an attempt to 'flame' gamers, just look at these for god's sakes:
Quote:Originally posted by LizWool : Geez, Matt, what planet did you get off of?
Quote:Originally posted by LizWool : Who are you to come in here, and tell me why my son shot himself? You never saw him in your life!
Quote:Originally posted by LizWool : Maybe you should wake up and take the blinders off of your eyes so you can see what is really happening to so many gamers, possibly including yourself. But no, you continue to reek havoc with your real life and the lives of your family and loved ones, so you can sit in front of the computer day and night to play your stupid game.
Quote:Originally posted by LizWool : I bet if your wife came down on you, and tried to take the game away, for any reason, you would blast her, cause you can't live without the game, either, and if you think you can, than let's see you do it!
Do I need to find more quotes? I think they all speak for themselves. Even you Diggo can't bail her out of this one. So STOP contradicting everything your saying and this will be a much easier discussion. And on a final note Liz don't flame the gamers, even if you try to do it it a nice polite way, we can all read betwen the lines....And were gonna flame right back at ya...
-SCREAM. CR-
Edited by: SCREAM CR at: 12/11/02 8:04:20 pm
Pizza is my friend! OLGA IS NOT!
One thing I wanted to point out:
Quote:These twelve steps are guidelines for members of On-Line Gamers Anonymous to live by. Regardless of which step you are about to enter, the support of the twelve step program will help you recognize and conquer on-line gaming addiction.
1. We admitted we were powerless over on-line gaming, and that our lives have become unmanageable.
2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.
3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.
4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
5. Admitted to God, to ourselves and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.
6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.
7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.
8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.
9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure, them or others.
10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.
11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.
12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to other compulsive on-line gamers and to practice these principles in all our affairs.
From the OLGA main page.
Also from the Main Page:
Quote:Say 'Thank you God' until it becomes a habit.
From Ron's post:
Quote:11. OLGAnon is not a religious organization. I, myself, am Wiccan, and the other volunteers range from Atheist to Jewish, as well as Christian. To consider OLGAnon as being a bible-thumping organization, is to be way off.
Want to get rid of the 'OLGA's made up of a bunch of bible-thumping' mindset? Stop thumping the bible.
^^^^^^
Fellwarre pretty much just laid the nail on the head right there.
This is EXACTLY the type of thing that I'm talking about here, the members of OLGA are making so many contradictions in their posts it's unbelivable.
They post things then turn around and post something totally diffrent than the point they were making in their previous post. Or they make a post like the one above that Diggo made wich totally goes against what the mission of this organization is about. Once told otherwise, they try desperatly to justify themselves.
Then Diggo has the nerve to tell us that we are concentrating so much on the accuracy of every sentence posted, that we fail to see the message behind them? Nonsense.
You guys seem to be pretty insecure about yourselves jumping back and forth over the fence like you are.
As I said in my above post you guys need to STOP making contradictions and this discussion will be easier for all of us.
carry on...
Speaking for myself, I have tried to always speak from the heart. Over the months, I have changed my viewpoints on things...some of those being 180 degree turnarounds in what I believe on some issues.
While Liz is quite capable of defending herself, I know she too, has changed her mind on some issues. I'm just amazed at the standard that you hold her to, and yet you post statement after statement that is untrue, old, outdated, misstated and inaccurate. I probably have dozens of posts from over the past few months where I've called people on comments they made only to have them ignored because they knew they were wrong in making them.
Good gods, Scream, how many hours have you spent going through old posts to find those statements above, most of which can be interpreted any number of ways?
For example, just because OLGAnon uses the 12-Steps does not mean that this is a religious organization. This would be, according to one of our late and great detractors, Hayzen, a non-sequitor argument. For example:
1. All amphibians can live on land and in water.
2. Starfish can live on land and water.
3. Therefore a starfish is an amphibian.
The last statement just does not follow.
Similarly, just because we are offering the 12-Steps which is Christian-based, it doesn't mean we are a Christian organization. Just because you present irrational argument after irrational argument, it doesn't mean you are an irrational person. Are you following this?
In essence you are repeatedly drawing conclusions and trying to find similarities between unrelated, mutually exclusive statements.
If you want to clear things up once and for all so this discussion will be easier, then call Liz on the phone.. Call her.. Please, one of you have the guts and dignity to leave your raid party here and find out for yourself what she believes.
Will you do that Scream? Will you call her? Or will you just continue to hide behind the other detractors here with your "attaboys" whenever someone says something that you agree with. That's mob mentality, man.
Stop being a follower and be a leader. Take charge...call Liz and find out for yourself what you REALLY want to know. She's no worse than Kizdean Gix.
Ron
Ron Jaffe AKA Diggo McDiggity
eMail: eqaddict@cfl.rr.com
Discussion Board Administrator
Everquest player from July, 1999 to April, 2002
Over 4,900 Hours Played
Co-Founder of OLGA and member since 2002
Scream didn't 'dig those comments up,' I did. And it didn't take much digging, since it's the very basis of your main page.
I'll say it again...
Your MAIN PAGE.
And it's not that OLGA uses the '12 steps,' it specifically states on your MAIN PAGE that those 'christian based' 12 steps 'are guidelines for members of On-Line Gamers Anonymous to live by.'
If this information was simply posted by Liz, it would be different. But putting it on your MAIN PAGE states that OLGA, as an organization, uses belief in God as a tool to 'overcome addiction.'
That means, you're a chrisitian organization.
Sorry, but it's true.