More Disturbing than gaming addiction

Endol,

Thank you for coming here and posting.

I will be in contact with you.

Liz

Quote:here's the question that i ask you readers. what is it that you like to do in YOUR time not working, or taking care of errands... family etc etc. Well, it really doesn't matter what someone does. What we are trying to address here is when someone begins to neglect his or her RL obligations to the extent that he begins harming himself and or his relationships with others, that's when gaming can become detrimental.Quote:Secondly, what the HELL is wrong with you?! you have to believe in GOD to recover from playing a "gaming addict?" We've posted countless posts here that you do not have to believe in God or follow any particular spiritual path to recover from the problems caused by excessive/compulsive gaming and even Liz has stated this several times. However, she follows the Christian path and remember, she didn't come to you, you came here to her, you should just respect her choice, even if you don't believe in it. No need to get hostile.Quote:making a forum isn't going to help anyone.Well, it did help me, or Liz helped me to be more accurate. I've learned a lot about the problems caused by excessive and compulsive online usage being an admin here over the past couple years. I've also learned many ways to help get your life together when things have gotten out of control. Today I am playing EQ again. But it is only a diversion when the obligations of real life have been taken care of first.Quote:World of Warcraft is coming out later this year, i was wondering if you guys wanted to chip in and buy me a copy?Nah, it's just a ripoff of EQ...trolls and gnomes....and a new map called 'Deadlands.' That's original.Quote:chances are i'm not going to come back to the board, or even the site because it offends me.Heh... Sure you will...they all come back
Ron

Ron Jaffe AKA Diggo McDiggity
Discussion Board Administrator
On-Line Gamers Anonymous

Quote:Secondly, what the HELL is wrong with you?! you have to believe in GOD to recover from playing a "gaming addict?" Liz, not only are your steps listed above a joke, but they are offensive to myself, as an agnostic. THEY HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH GAMING. oh my god, could.....

I found that rather amusing...

***Veni Vidi Vici***

Hehe, Meridious...
Ron

Ron Jaffe AKA Diggo McDiggity
Discussion Board Administrator
On-Line Gamers Anonymous

I did an argumentative essay on 'Online Gaming Addiction' a couple months ago for class...and I can tell you that it (Internet Gaming Addiction)is now being addressed as a real problem.

You cannot do a search...with ANY engine...concerning 'internet gaming addiction' and not come up with a dozen(to one) sites that support the theory. It is almost impossible to find any support AGAINST the idea. Trust me...I spent DAYS looking through all available sites and for every single study I found against the idea, there were MANY that were in agreement that it is a problem. Regardless of my personal belief....there has definately been some serious research going on that proves otherwise.

I still believe that until we are able to sort out the problems with people that lead to life-changing addiction...that all we will ever be abel to do is identify "THINGS" that can be addictive. Science needs to look for the determining factors WITHIN people...not within the 'ACTIVITY'..in order to better understand what is happening.

I stopped coming here and arguing the subject because I could never quite get my feelings...my POINT across, and so my opinion never amounted to much...but I can tell you for sure that this area is being FURIOUSLY studied and is not being tossed to the wayside. If I were to continue my arguments against it, I would have to regroup and come at it a different way.

Give it another year and much more will be known, no doubt.

I still believe the problem lies WITHIN...and not with an activity itself (And I am excluding ANY examples of CHEMICAL addiction)..and until we find out what lies within that leads to life-chainging...life-threatening addiction...all we will ever be able to do is POINT our fingers at activity "X" and say, "People can get addicted to that".

I hope the studies will one day reveal what factors in certain people lead to such devastating addiction in areas that 90% (Pulling that from thin air) of people have NO problems with.

I continue to be fascinated by the whole idea and will always follow it to see what is going on.

Suffice it to say that there is much more validity to the subject than a year ago...and much more still to come.

***Veni Vidi Vici***

Meridious,

Thanks for the information and your thoughts. I appreciate it.

You are always welcome here. Don't forget it!

I know this will get worse, before it gets better. It is a new
phenomenon.

There are things that do make the games addictive. Games designers are required to have degrees in psychology, so they can make the games as addictive as possible.

Take care.
Liz

For an agnostic, you seem to be very anti-god. Keep in mind, a true agnostic doesn't possess hatred toward religion.
And if you think that the only way out of a game is through God ... well might I suggest you get involved in Black Metal and church burning ... yeah that will certainly get you away from EQ...

Quote:Keep in mind, a true agnostic doesn't possess hatred toward religion.A very important and truthful quote. Thank you.
Ron

Ron Jaffe AKA Diggo McDiggity
Discussion Board Administrator
On-Line Gamers Anonymous

Quote:Keep in mind, a true agnostic doesn't possess hatred toward religion.
Even if they hate how people can put their faith in a deity that is so wishy-washy that they couldn't care if it's real or not?

Quote:Even if they hate how people can put their faith in a deity that is so wishy-washy that they couldn't care if it's real or not?I think his point is that, if you will excuse the EQ reference, any religion should con as 'indifferent' to a true agnostic. I think that's what he means. In that case, I would agree.
Frankly, most 'athiests' and 'agnostics' I have met, have been more anti-Christian, than have been indifferent to it.

Ron

Ron Jaffe AKA Diggo McDiggity
Discussion Board Administrator
On-Line Gamers Anonymous

But you do understand my poorly worded point, right?

I had to re-read it a couple times, but I do see your point.
Ron

Ron Jaffe AKA Diggo McDiggity
Discussion Board Administrator
On-Line Gamers Anonymous

I'm pretty new here but it seems Endol just did not understand that its not gaming thats wrong. It is when gaming takes over your life and begins to degrade and ruin it. Where you compulsivley play and lose control of your life. That is addiction. When you do something on a regular basis to get a feeling or to lose a feeling and it cuases harm in your life then to me that is an addiction. I have a twin brother who spent a year or so in a rehab facility. Not for online gaming but for other things, there were other people there who were there becuase of online gaming addiction. It can be an addiction, it could not be. I know people who play 30+ hours a week and are not addicted, thats just how much free time etc they have. Where as others will play 60-90 hours a week neglecting to do things like going to school or taking a shower. Where they will put in my case everquest as more important than thier Girlfriend. That is wrong and that is addiction and that is what I see this site trying to help with. Not those people who game and have control of thier lives.
The whole religious thing... I don't even know where to begin on my religous perspectives. To be honest I don't know. I do know that there could be a god and he could be good and he could help me. And if knowing that helps a person to become sober then i'm all for it.

Love,
Aaron Blair
1 Day Sober From Everquest.

Aaron, I think that your description of why we're here is pretty accurate, as is your analysis that gaming is fine for some and poison for others!

The religeous references are here because when Liz started OLGA, she modelled it after other 12-step programs that include religeous themes in them. No one here is forcing religeon on anyone, as I think you've figured out on your own.

I hope that this site helps you.

The problem is most of what I ever see here is that gaming is wrong -- because it will ruin your life

most of the people (most) will say that. they can't truely see that it is purely individual, and that we must look further into the human mind to see where the real problem lies....they want a scapegoat

Quote:The problem is most of what I ever see here is that gaming is wrong -- because it will ruin your lifeNah, that's not really true, Havneq. Granted, Liz isn't a gamer, but you have to consider that when people post here that they want to stop gaming because they are spending so much time doing it to the detriment of their relationships or health or whatever, she's only trying to give them alternatives to gaming. Because she gives alternatives, it doesn't mean she is an anti-gamer. Frankly, she does have a strong bias against EQ for obvious reasons, but that's a problem she has to work out. And she's learning and growing like the rest of us.
As for the other admins and I, we are still avid gamers. We've just tried learn to keep our gaming as just a part of our lives instead of it being a pervasive part.

After the first of the year, we are going to be steering this site and its mission into what I hope will be a more acceptable format, emphasizing 'responsible' gameplay and regaining one's self control when one's gaming has gotten out of hand. This is where we will need YOUR help and the help of other gamers to help spread the word.

Computers will always be here in one form or another, and gaming will always be one of their prime uses. But people who have not really spent much time on one and who get dumped into an online realm such as Norrath, can really get in over their heads quickly. This is most common among people of our generations (mid-late 20s-40s and 50s) who didn't have computers when we were young, or who only had TRS-80s'. Atari's and Commodore Pets/C16/C64s, etc.

I believe that the kids who are growing up now who have always had computers in their lives, will be more balanced, since to them, using a computer will be no more special to us than watching TV was when we were little. Most of us aren't hooked on TV... of course except during MST-3K Marathons and such.

Ron

Ron Jaffe AKA Diggo McDiggity
Discussion Board Administrator
On-Line Gamers Anonymous

Quote:Games designers are required to have degrees in psychology, so they can make the games as addictive as possible.

While I value the service this site offers to people who may find it useful in surmounting personal issues, I have to take exception to this blanket statement that is quite frankly, sensationalist propoganda.

I've worked in the gaming industry for about 5 years and know many designers, programmers, artists, producers, marketing executives, biz dev folks and others who make a living producing computer entertainment products for both consoles and PCs (and even mobile devices). I can tell you all, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that there is absolutely no such sweeping requirement in the gaming industry for game designers (or any other game production related employee), to have a psychology degree. The truth of the matter is that some designers MAY have them because they feel it helps them understand their audiences better and this in turn, helps them become better designers and more successful in their jobs. This may even make them a better candidate for a job then someone else. However, the degree itself has never been (and I doubt ever will be) a job requirement in the industry, and any person posessing one most likely persued it for reasons of self-improvement, and not because it was professionally mandated by their employers.

In truth, many game development companies are acutely aware of the growing concern regarding the level of "immersion" a game requires of its audience (mostly thanks to sites like these and the popular coverage of similar issues in the media). As a result, they are designing games that require smaller, more "bite-size" chunks of a person's time to play. This is actually a response to market demand, because MOST folks who play computer games aren't able to spend hours on end every day entertaining themselves. If a game can't be consumed in smaller chunks, a large portion of people will stop playing it. In addition, a company will not continue to create a product that will draw unfavorable press or attention. It's not smart business. That's partly why "niblet" sized gaming experiences are noticeabley trendy in current game designs, and why you're seeing a fundamental shift in game design strategies that reflect these concerns.

The result will be games that help folks with control issues manage their game time more easily, so that it does not interfere as much, or as easily, with their "real life" responsibilities.

Please don't take my post in the wrong way... I am all for sharing ideas and using open, honest communications as a way to help out people in need, but to do so most effectively, it is important to share factual information, and not propogate urban mythology in its place.

Cheers --

Lanorra

Edited by: Lanorra at: 12/14/03 7:24 am

Quote:As a result, they are designing games that require smaller, more "bite-size" chunks of a person's time to play. This is actually a response to market demand, because MOST folks who play computer games aren't able to spend hours on end every day entertaining themselves.A good point. Lost Dungeons of Norrath is a perfect example, although to many, there is still the lure of playing as many of those small chunks of time as possible to reap greater and greater rewards. It's like giving someone a healthy, balanced dinner and then following it up with a giant slab of rich, chocolate cake. For those who play excessively and compulsively, LDoN is just another way for them to play for countless hours, since many I know play event after event after event for more adventure points and greater rewards. But at least it gives everyone another 'choice' to help balance their game time with their real lives.
Still, I think LDoN was a step in the right direction, because people who can play in manageable chunks of time, will probably play for longer periods of time versus those who play for 10 hours a day and burn out after a year or two and then stop completely.

As for the psychology degrees, I don't know anything about a requirement, but there was a news story a couple years back in which it was reported that some game manufacturers do enlist and employ the services of psychologists to help ensure that the game is 'attractive' as possible. You can take that in just about any context, but suffice it to say that the game manufacturers make money through residual payments, and a lost customer means lost revenues.

Ron

Ron Jaffe AKA Diggo McDiggity
Discussion Board Administrator
On-Line Gamers Anonymous

I don't talk about things that I don't have evidence of.
Maybe you should take a closer look of what you think you know..........this is a snippet of the article that follows. I wanted to post this, so you could see it.

Ask almost any player about EverQuest, and the conversation is sure to turn to a discussion of its addictive nature. They don't nickname it "EverCrack" and "NeverRest" for nothing. Tales abound of players who spent so much time online that they lost their jobs or spouses.
"It is very addictive," said player Gerald Goff. "You get emotionally involved with people online."
That emotional involvement keeps pulling people back, which was the result that the EverQuest team had intended. One of the game's developers, Geoffery Zatkin, was hired because he has a degree in psychology and was experienced with online communities.
"EverQuest is really a game about bringing people into contact with one another, and everything else is secondary," Zatkin said. "We built a world in which you can't win and it doesn't end. We were trying to mimic real life."

TODAY'S SCENE
EverQuest - virtually real

By Kathryn Balint
Copley News Service

'Tis the tale of a mystical new world, the people who dwell there, and their never-ending quest for adventure and fellowship.
In this strange medieval setting, people slay mythical creatures, seek elusive treasures and form alliances to help each other. They sew clothes, buy goods at the market and attend parties and poetry readings. They earn money to buy food, and put their savings in the bank.
Some marry. Many die. So goes the universe of EverQuest, a wildly popular online role-playing game that is being acted out by tens of thousands of players at any given moment.
EverQuest is at the forefront of a new breed of video games: one that combines interactive computer software with the social interaction of the Internet.
In many ways, the game is the Digital Age version of the 1970s role-playing game Dungeons & Dragons, in which players pretend to be wizards and warriors fighting make-believe monsters.
Such fantasies apparently hold universal appeal. From Borneo to Belgium, Australia to the United States, more than 330,000 people have paid $30 or so for EverQuest's software, plus $9.89 a month over and above their regular Internet access fees for the opportunity to masquerade as an elf or any one of a dozen other "races" in EverQuest's virtual world.
The game has no clear winner. There is never a clear end to it. And for many, there is no clear line between the real world and this fantasy world.
"It is part of the real world, just as Disneyland is part of the real world," insists EverQuest regular Bridget Agabra Goldstein. "We know that Mickey is just a kid inside a suit, but our experiences there are real. EverQuest, and other online situations, are just other arenas for the same old human interactions - having fun, falling in love, taking safe risks, feeling a bit of a thrill, learning and mastering something new."

IT'S NOT FOR KIDS
Just who are these players who hole up in front of their computers an average of 20 hours a week exploring virtual continents, battling computer-generated enemies and making real friends?
Two out of every three players are between the ages of 13 and 29, and nine out of 10 are male. But there are players representing just about all walks of life: judges and lawyers, septuagenarians, even married couples and entire families who play together.
This is not a game for young children, though. For starters, it's not easy. It also requires the ability to read and write, because all of the communication in the game is text-based. Then there's the violence: characters basically kill to survive. But at least the slaughter occurs with no blood-spattering, guts-spilling graphic effects on the screen.
Unlike EverQuest's closest competitor, Ultima Online, where powerful, established players get their jollies slaughtering unsuspecting "newbies," EQ players have the option of deciding whether they want their character to be able to kill other players.
Only about one in 10 choose to be a player-killer, and even then, they're forbidden from fighting unless they challenge the character and the challenge is accepted, said Scott McDaniel, Sony Online's executive director of marketing and public relations.
The point of the game is to climb "levels," beginning at 1 until you reach the most powerful of all, 60. Some people don't necessarily want to get to the top. They're just playing for the camaraderie. Others spend months and months trying to work their way through the levels.
Characters earn "experience points" by slaying computer-generated foes. But there's more to the game than just killing. EverQuest has its own thriving economy and its own flourishing social life. And those two aspects of this online world cross over from fantasy into real life as no other computer game has.
Characters need food and weapons. So, naturally, they have to make money to buy these necessities. Some do so by selling loot they find on their kill. Others learn a trade, jewelry making or tailoring, for instance, then sell their wares at in-game auctions. And then there are those who auction off their otherworldly goods for real, honest-to-goodness cash in the real-world marketplace.
Sony forbids the practice as a matter of fairness, yet as many as 4,000 EverQuest items are listed on eBay at any given time. An "Xegony Froglok Scale Chestplate" fetched $355. And bidding on an entire character, a level 55 wizard complete with fishbone earring, evil eye bag and ceremonial dagger, was approaching $1,000 recently. After the auction, the seller and the winning bidder meet online in EverQuest and exchange the virtual goods.

FRIENDSHIP IS KEY
But it's the relationships that people build while playing the game that blur the line between fantasy and reality more than anything else. A good part of the game play involves going on quests for hard-to-get treasures, usually too big a job for just one person. That's where a bunch of friends come in handy.
Many players belong to "guilds," whose members help each other out and, in the process, form lasting friendships that transcend the boundaries of the digital world.
When little Dawn Leiker, whose parents were EverQuest fans, was battling leukemia, updates on her progress were posted on the game's main message board. EQ players sent notes of encouragement, and mourned when she died last October, at age 7.
There's the tale of the player who couldn't afford to fix his computer. As EQ community relations manager Cindy Archuleta tells the story, everyone in his guild pitched in to pay for its repair. And there's the story Archuleta relates about the young woman who was going through a divorce. Her guild-mates chipped in to pay her way to a get-together of EQ players in Las Vegas last November.
Marriages - both in real-life and those strictly of the virtual variety - are major events. Computer programmer Tracy Schuhwerk and his wife, Raina, a medical student, "met" in EverQuest in 1998, when they were among the first 100 beta testers for the game.
He was a "human ranger" named Modius. She was a "wood elf warrior" named Kilian. They - the real-life people behind the characters, that is - married in October.
"We had so much fun initially just talking, becoming friends and exploring the areas that we could survive in together," Schuhwerk said. "It became very apparent that the main person I wanted to see when I got into EverQuest was Raina. We would meet on a daily basis and play together.
"We had a unique advantage in that we spent so much time ignoring the physical side of the relationship and learning the mental side of each other, that when we met face-to-face, we knew each other amazingly well."
Now that they're married, they continue to maintain their own separate EverQuest accounts so that their characters still see one another online.

GAMUT OF EMOTIONS
Sometimes, these online lives get really weird. Players have been known to take marriage vows online before an entourage of EQ friends - even though they were already spoken for by someone else in real life. Suicide threats are not unheard of.
Sony's technical support staff, which patrols EverQuest's virtual world in the form of "game masters," are trained to keep the suicidal person chatting online, while they notify authorities.
"Usually, they're upset over something that's happened in their real life," said head game master Michelle Butler.
One player even faked a suicide after she was stripped of her position as a volunteer guide in the game. Announcements of her "death" shocked EQ fans, who expressed their sorrow, until they found out it was all a cruel - and perplexing - hoax.

NICKNAME: 'NEVERREST'
Ask almost any player about EverQuest, and the conversation is sure to turn to a discussion of its addictive nature. They don't nickname it "EverCrack" and "NeverRest" for nothing. Tales abound of players who spent so much time online that they lost their jobs or spouses.
"It is very addictive," said player Gerald Goff. "You get emotionally involved with people online."
That emotional involvement keeps pulling people back, which was the result that the EverQuest team had intended. One of the game's developers, Geoffery Zatkin, was hired because he has a degree in psychology and was experienced with online communities.
"EverQuest is really a game about bringing people into contact with one another, and everything else is secondary," Zatkin said. "We built a world in which you can't win and it doesn't end. We were trying to mimic real life."
Research into online relationships is still in its infancy. But Dr. Mark Wiederhold, a faculty member at the California School of Professional Psychology, said the anonymous nature of the Internet lets people get emotionally close quickly.
"People tend to feel more comfortable in revealing more personal information about themselves online because they're anonymous," Wiederhold said.
Add to that the emotional ups and downs players experience in an online game, he said, and the bond can become just as strong as if they had met face-to-face.
"Studies show the intensity of an online relationship is no different than a relationship in real life," he said. "The same feelings of bonding and closeness develop online."

MORE GAMES TO COME
EverQuest is just the beginning of a revolution in video games. Sony, which initially marketed EverQuest to hard-core gamers, is broadening its reach.
"There's a large number of people who would love to play a game like EverQuest, but they don't even know it exists," said Brad McQuaid, EverQuest's executive producer.
But just in case EQ doesn't capture your fancy, Sony has other online, multi-player games in the works that may: Star Wars Galaxies, based on the movie; PlanetSide, an action game that takes place in a distant galaxy; and Sovereign, a political strategy game.
Because of the popularity of Internet role-playing games, in addition to new gaming consoles like Sega's Dreamcast and PlayStation 2, which are capable of connecting to the Net, online gaming is expected to skyrocket.
Market research firm Datamonitor estimated U.S. online gaming revenues at $57 million in 1999. But the firm says that will soar to $2.8 billion by the year 2004.
Some people even predict that multi-player online games will become a major form of entertainment.
"I think in five or 10 years," McQuaid said, "we'll have millions of people playing these multi-player online games and the budgets of these games will rival the budgets of mainstream movies."
If so, you may find that rare "Xegony Froglok Scale Chestplate" that was selling on eBay for hundreds of dollars packaged in a box of cereal.

(Sidebar to EverQuest - Virtually Real)
come true
By Kathryn Balint
Copley News Service

Before it had lush forests, icy tundras and bustling cities populated by menacing trolls, evil elves and spell-weaving gnomes, EverQuest was but a wild dream.
The year was 1996, and the Dungeons & Dragons theme had long been thriving on the Internet in primitive text-only, dial-up chat rooms. As Internet connections got faster, and home computers got more powerful, the potential for these online fantasy games was not lost on John Smedley, then-director of development for Sony's 989 Studios.
He set out to create a virtual world filled with adventure, robust characters and intensive graphics. The project turned out to be far more ambitious than anyone could have imagined. The virtual world had to be big enough, and exciting enough, to keep the attention of even the most avid gamer.
EverQuest's team of developers came up with 24,000 computer-generated characters, from guards who can help save a player's life to Minotaurs who attack everyone who comes near.
Early on, the developers decided to take a chance by creating such realistic three-dimensional graphics that it would require a computer with a 3-D graphics accelerator card to run the game. Their competitors at the time had two-dimensional games in the works. Development costs climbed. Smedley had to persuade Sony to plunge more money into the project.

QUESTIONABLE START
The EverQuest project was spun off into its own company, Verant Interactive, and the team moved into its own quarters. All the while, there was the constant worry that maybe this project would just be a big bust, that maybe people simply wouldn't be willing to fork over a monthly subscription fee to play, or maybe there weren't enough consumers who had computers powerful enough to play the game.
"We were saying to ourselves, 'Boy, if we could just get 70,000 people to play for four months, we'll break even. We hope we can do that,'" recalled Brad McQuaid, EverQuest's executive producer and a co-founder of Verant Interactive.
He got a hint of the game's future success at a computer game developer's conference in April 1998. Verant had a booth at the trade show and connected eight computers so that, for the first time, people outside of the company could give the game a try.
"These people just played it and played it and played it," McQuaid said. "They just didn't leave. A few people switched terminals so that we wouldn't notice that they were there for hours."
After three years in the making, before the game was released, EverQuest was already breaking records. It became the No. 1 pre-sold computer game ever at the Web site of online retailer EBWorld.com.

QUICK SUCCESS
Within a week of EverQuest's launch in March 1999, 40,000 people had signed up. But initially, that success was overshadowed by technical problems.
Thousands of players either couldn't log on, got kicked off the game in mid-play, or couldn't play because the connection was so sluggish. Turned out, McQuaid said, the Internet service providers - which were experienced with handling Web surfers, not game players - didn't have big enough pipelines to handle all of EverQuest's traffic. They rushed to install new Internet lines.
"We were victims of our own success," McQuaid said. "We were terrified that the people who were excited by the game would log in, have a bad experience and never come back to play again."
The fear was unfounded. Six months after its release, 225,000 EverQuest games had been sold, and 150,000 players were active subscribers, making it the best-selling online role-playing game ever made, with the biggest subscriber base of any online game. So far, more than a million copies of the software have been sold worldwide. The game now boasts 330,000 subscribers.

NEW RECORDS
When Verant Interactive released a $20 expansion pack called The Scars of Velious last month, 100,000 sold in the first five days. The expansion pack allows EverQuest players to explore a whole new, all-frozen continent.
Last month, the game also set another record: 74,000 people playing at once, which goes way beyond its creators' wildest dreams.
"EverQuest has been one of the biggest success stories," said David Cole, president of DFC Intelligence, a video-game market research firm.
"People said, 'You'll never get customers to pay to subscribe to online games.' EverQuest came along and proved that customers would pay a fairly substantial amount."
In the last year and a half, Verant was acquired by Sony Online Entertainment and the staff ballooned from 70 employees to more than 300. Part of that expansion was to run Sony's gaming Web site, The Station (www.station.com). Much of the rest was to handle EverQuest's growing number of subscribers.
Visit Copley News Service at www.copleynews.com.
(c) Copley News Service

That's one really old article.. Quote:When Verant Interactive released a $20 expansion pack called The Scars of Velious last month, 100,000 sold in the first five days.

SoV was released when.. 3 years ago? :-)

-Qalelan, 65th Arch Convoker on the Quellious server
Magelo

You betcha, Saethan.

I had to dig back to find this one.

They aren't going to write articles like this now, because it wouldn't be "good" for their cause.

I am trying to show you, how it was developed and what the purpose was - in the beginning - when they didn't care how many lives they were ruining.