I guess I'm an optimist, albeit a frustrated one. Something in me keeps insisting that people will listen and respond to reason. I guess that's my fantasy world.
Obsessive game play is not the problem. It is a symptom of the problem. If you take away the game, the affected person will simply find some other "addiction". The root cause of the aberrent behavior goes untreated. Let me give you the real "12-Steps" that you evangelical addiction-busters are imposing on people.
1. Confuse "symptom" with "problem".
2. Convince Addict that stopping the addictive behavior will "cure" him.
3. Borrow and adapt every insipid, mealy-mothed slogan and trite anecdote to prop up step 2. (You have increased your skill in Plagiarizing Propaganda (112))
4 Addict stops behavior, shouts "Hallelujah, AMEN", he is cured, his demons have been exorcised. Addict is metamorhized into Recovering Addict (DING!)
5. Addiction busters chalk up another victory, pound one another on the back enthusiastically and look for another addict to "help". (You have increased your skill in Righteous Intervention (143))
6. Recovering Addict basks in the glory of his new-found wellness, becomes a real pain in the butt to be around.
7. The glow of breaking his addiction begins to fade, and the real problem begins exerting its influence on the recovering addict. (A_Real_Problem_01 says: You Addiction Buster's have ruined your own lands, you will not ruin MINE!)
8. Recovering Addict resumes his search for some mechanism to cope with A_Real_Problem_01. He stumbles across the "2,100 Mile Ozark Hike" quest!
9. Recovering Addict begins finding the sense of belonging/accomplishment/competence that he has lacked since breaking his EQ addiction. He begins spending hundreds of dollars and hours on his new "hobby".
10. Recovering Addict begins spending more time in his new "hobby" than he does at work, perhaps even taking 6-month long "vacations" to indulge this healthy pastime.
11. Recovering addict has immersed himself in the world of long arduous walks, calf cramps, exotic shoes and funny hats. He abandons his family and home, puts his job on hold, and convinces himself that his new...um...hobby...is a normal, healthy outlet, no matter what anyone says.
12. His wife/family/friends start a familiar litany. "Don't you think you're spending way too much time strolling through the woods?" "You mean you called in sick so you could hike?" "I swear, if you don't start spending some time with me and the kids, I'll throw those **** shoes in the trash!" Start over with Step 1.
Yes, its a lot easier to attack an external influence (a game) rather than address whatever the real problem is. Even if every possible addiction is eliminated, the people with problems wills till ahve their problems, but will be unable to display the symptoms.
Ahh, whats the use...
Gosh aren't you funny?
If you actually had taken the time to read responses rather than bash at everything, you would have realized that we agree with you. That one must take personal responsibility for his/her own actions, including spending too much time on a computer game. We also admit that compusive and excessive gaming is filling a void that must be dealt with WHILE taking that personal responsibility that I mentioned above. This site is really no different than say gamblers anon, alcoholic anon, or narcotics anon. EQ is just the drug of choice of the people we are here to help.
So my suggestion to you is instead of coming up with moronic idiotic steps, to actually help us help other people who come here looking for support and encouragement.
Tosha
Thats the point...for the most part, this message board is not "...help(ing) other people who come here looking for support and encouragement."
What this board is doing is setting up a stalking horse that enables obsessive gamers to continue denying that there is something seriously wrong with them. Throughout this board, the constant, unremitting theme is that "EQ is the problem, stop playing EQ and you will be A-OK." Where did I get that idea? From reading the posts on this board!
EQ is not the problem...online gaming is not the problem. The problem is that too many well-intentioned people keep flaming EQ as the cause of all evil and preaching the gospel that quitting EQ is the answer. Quitting EQ is not the answer.
This is an answer. (Yeah, steps again...sue me.)
1. Realize that you have a problem and obsessive gaming (or whatever) is a symptom of that problem.
2. Find a good therpist. Interview them as you would a prospective nanny. Find one you like, trust, and can communicate with.
3. Be patient. It may take years to uncover the problem. I know that this method may not be attractive to you "I need instant answers, blame the symptom" folks, but thats the way it is.
I've been in therapy for 20+ years and I'm not "well". By sticking with the counselling and making an effort to implement what you learn (even if you really don't believe any of the psychobabble), you can reach a point of sustainable, bearable existance. Realize that you may never be "well", but will continue to rely on the tools therapy gives you much the same way a paraplegic relies on his wheelchair.
You're right about one thing, this site is no different than many other "Give me a reason to avoid confronting my real problem, k thx" sites on the Web. Its like another person posted in another thread...Its like blaming the car company instead of the drunk drivers for all the alcohol-related deaths.
Still trying...
Please check out the following links before offering more advise on how to cure your problems by quitting EQ.
www.smh.com.au/articles/2...29970.html
www.ican.com/news/fullpag...rticle.cfm
*Please note that they are referring to an addiction, not an obsession.
www.smithwrite.com/TheForge/reality.htm
www.geocities.com/Heartla...08/ill.htm
*Please read it to the end. Notice that curing the particular obsessions did nothing to address the underlying problem.
www.risperdal.com/consumer/holliday.htm
www.jeremysprophecy.com/l...icle1.html
Don't be suprised if some of thosee people who quit EQ at the urging of misguided philanthropists wind up killing themselves because their coping mechanism was taken away without something being offered in its place.
Quote:I've been in therapy for 20+ years and I'm not "well". By sticking with the counselling and making an effort to implement what you learn (even if you really don't believe any of the psychobabble), you can reach a point of sustainable, bearable existance. Realize that you may never be "well", but will continue to rely on the tools therapy gives you much the same way a paraplegic relies on his wheelchair.
Are you not now addicted or obsessed with therapy? You have been in for 20+ years then you are most definatly are. You substituted your addition to something else with the addiction to the therapist. Trust me, its less expensive to keep a $13.00 a month subscription to EQ then a 20+ year therapist relationship.
You make a good point, but you shine of hypocracy.
Lelgolas
Heh
Silly wabbit.
Please allow me to cut-n-paste from another post of mine on this board...its very relevant I think.
/quote
LOL, the assumptions people make.
I don't play EQ 40+ hours a week. I play anywhere from 0 to 20 hours a week, depending on the state of other things in my life.
I don't need to quit EQ anymore than I need to quit therapy, or baking, or reading, or sewing, or writing, or drawing, or working, or creating VB apps, or watching TV, or going on picnics, or arguing politics and religion with my friends.
EQ is only one arena among many in which I choose to challenge myself. Having a 20+ year history of chronic depression, I've had to learn to avoid the pitfalls of allowing any one thing to become my reason for living. I've also learned to differentiate between my problem and a mere symptom. You have not.
[/quote]
As far as being addicted to therapy...hmmm. I'll have to bring that up with my therapist. I guess I could quit therapy and sink into a morass of self-pity and futility. Or maybe I could just quit eating...I'm sure I could do that, but is it good for me? Maybe I should quit bathing? And retreat into my darkened bedroom to sit there and seriously contemplate the taste of blued steel?
It might behoove you to refrain from attacking the people who agree that being addicted to EQ is crap spread by people eager to avoid taking responsibility for their own actions.
The intent of my post was not to demonize gaming, but to point out that obsessive gaming is merely a symptom of of an underlying problem. You can snatch EQ from someone, but all they will do is find another hook to hang their hat on. If they are obsessively gaming, they need therapy for whatever the real problem is.
Leucol,
I agree with you. I don't think we are that far apart in our thinking. You have to realize we are still very new here. This site has only been up for a few short months and up until 2 months ago, we only had 50 registered members. I myself stumbled upon the site when I wanted to know if there were others like me, and it was a comfort to know that this site existed and yes there are many others out there feeling as I did.
We can't solve the whole problem on this site, but we can get them on the road to recovery and offer the support and encouragement that they are needing at that point in their life. People who have never played EQ, don't know what the draw of the game really is like. The game has so many different layers involved with it that when one starts to pull away from it, there is a lot more going on than just stopping a hobby. Being an ex-gamer myself, I can offer my point of view.
I also have been in therapy on and off during my life. I think it is the best thing that can happen to you. I am a huge adovacte of counseling and therapy sessions. I think we need to push therapy sessions to our members more. However, a lot of the people coming to us are younger kids who would need to get their parents involved. That is why I always tell somebody of this age, to go talk to their parents.
But getting back to your point. I think this site does help people. I think we have opened a lot of people's eyes and made them start thinking about their own lives. There are a lot of people who just lurk and don't post anything. If we could just save one person from the fate of Shawn, then my time will have been worth every minute spent here. Of course, I will never know if I helped that one person probably, but that won't make me stop coming here and offering my help, support, and encouragement whenever I can. And the trolls and griefers won't make me stop coming either.
Tosha
When I first got here I maintained the same position as you. And to a large extent I still do. I do not believe per say that EQ is addictive like other physical drugs. But there is definitely a compulsive behavior that can develop with the game, like any other leisure activity.
No one here is saying you can't play games online or off. Online gaming is VERY entertaining so sometimes one can become obsessed with it. Its just a message board to help people discipline their game playing along with real life.
Huodini Nukingfurby
nukingfurby@hotmail.com
This fellow definitely isn't well, by his own admission, and I don't think that it serves any purpose to engage him for his 'entertainment.'
We get these trolls from time to time, and while I have about 30 minutes for boards, I limit my resources to those who truly want to help themselves.
29 minutes left....see ya!
Art by Culurien GoldleafEscaped from the Skinner Box 20 October 2002
Leucol said:
Sorry, but I disagree. As soon as someone says, "I'm an optimist," I know that's the time to start running. Leucol, your posts have been anything but optimistic. Optimists don't take a life goal that someone has set for himself and try to establish that every aspect of this person's life goal is to escape from or to enslave a family member. An optimist would say, "You know, that person seems really intent on achieving that goal. I think I'll support him because it seems to be something he really wants." That's what an optimist would do.
Frankly, your iteration of what you call the "real 12 steps" is nothing more than a personal insult which makes me question even more, what bothers you so much about the fact that I personally find hiking more interesting than EQ now. I'd say jealousy, but I know you would emphatically deny it. As for your number 6 where you are basically saying I'm a pain to be around, remember that I didn't come to your message board, you came here.
And despite the fact that I've told you I agreed with you no less than three times, you still, for some reason, think that I am blaming the game for my excessive play.
I have addressed what the real problem is. I spent 6 long, hard months looking closely at where my life was and what made me play almost 5,000 hours of EQ. I addressed each of the points I identified as being problem areas and every day I strive to improve at least one of those areas. It's been hard work, and I'm proud of the progress I've made. Sorry you are having a problem with that.
You may want to ask yourself why you have a need to be so negative in your posts.
I'll say it again, we really are on the same team here and believe the same things. Really.
Ron
Ron Jaffe AKA Diggo McDiggity
eMail: eqaddict@cfl.rr.com
Discussion Board Administrator
Everquest player from July, 1999 to April, 2002
Over 4,900 Hours Played
Co-Founder of OLGA and member since 2002
Diggo,
I chose to use your situation in my example because of the level of detail you provided. I normally prefer to use real situations as opposed to just making something up because there is a legitimate criticism that a made up situation doesn't reflect reality.
Remember when people used to justify video game addictions by pointing out the improvement of hand-eye coordination?
Hiking is good because it (insert contrived benefit here).
Since I fundametally disagree with the stated mission of this board, to wit...
"On-Line Gamers Anonymous is a fellowship of people sharing their experience, strengths and hope to help each other recover and heal from the problems caused by compulsive game playing."
...I intend to work toward disabusing people of the notion that compulsive game playing is the cause of problems. Its a symptom.
Since you support this board, you (by extension) support the mission of OLGA. This makes us adversaries. Since you are by far the most lucid and literate of its supporters, you are the most effective. You are the one that must be countered at every oppportunity and by whatever legitimate means available.
I really don't care if you sue SOE down to their boxers, your stated mission is fundamentally wrong. If you succeed in establishing that compulsive gaming is a cause rather than a symptom, then you are propogating the principle that abrogating personal responsibility is acceptable as long as you can affix the blame on someone else.
I simply don't believe your claims that you agree with me. Since you support the idea that compulsive gaming is the problem and I disagree with it completely, you cannot agree with me unless you are either a liar or a hypocrite.
Edited by: Leucol at: 12/11/02 8:35:06 am
Soprena,
Dear, dear Soprena,
I'm not here for entertainment. But attempting to trivialize my comments rather than refuting them amply demonstrates the limits of your cognitive abilities. I understand how all the reading and thinking makes that gray stuff located behind your forehead ache terribly. Perhaps you should limit yourself to tending your E-Z Bake oven rather than trying to keep up with the topic.
One more reply, then I have to head off to work, lest I am accused again of being addicted to this board.
Leucol, I guess what I don't understand is what I, in particular, am saying specifically to suggest that I am blaming the game for the problems. I really do agree that there are underlying reasons that cause someone to do anything excessively. I've addressed that issue directly in my life over the past 8 months, which is why I feel balanced and centered with regard to this issue today.
As for the mission statement, it is basically a combination of suggestions that we all came up with months ago. While none of us agree 100% with all of it, it was the best combination of words at the time. Perhaps, you've given us reason enough to revisit it and rework it to better reflect the underlying causes behind the addiction. I'll discuss it with the rest of the moderator folk and see what we can come up with. Suggestions are welcome, by the way.
I am a staunch supporter of OLGAnon, but I am not the founder. Nor do I have the final say on things. I am merely some volunteer who has played EQ for thousands of hours and who, because of an underlying problem, ended up playing it excessively. I have also managed to identify and deal with that problem and have come out on the other side. I just want to share my experiences with others who might not be able to find their way out for the short time that I am here.
As for the game itself... I believe it is just a game. I believe the gun that the 12 year old used to shoot his teacher in the face was just a gun. And I believe that the quarter pounders that the kids who are suing McDonalds ate are simply quarter pound hamburgers.
On the other hand, I've read hundreds of personal accounts of family problems in which one or more of the persons played Everquest very heavily. I myself have played many games including a number of MMORPGs, and to this day play Return to Castle Wolfenstein with some regularity...certainly not like I played EQ. But to this day, I have never seen any game have quite the pull that EQ does. Others have said the same thing.
So while I don't blame the game, I do ask myself, on a daily basis, just what is it about EQ that makes it so darned attractive to the point where someone, (who has underlying problems already, I agree) chooses EQ as their 'drug of choice' instead of any other game or drug?
I think ultimately, if we can identify just how and why aspects of EQ appeal to people with certain problems, then we can help prevent the problems people create for themselves by helping them to properly deal with their problems in the first place.
As online gaming continues to mature, this issue will be raised more and more, and I'm sure at some point, there will be enough interest for members of the psychology field to study it more in depth.
And ultimately, maybe sites like this won't have to exist.
Ron
Ron Jaffe AKA Diggo McDiggity
eMail: eqaddict@cfl.rr.com
Discussion Board Administrator
Everquest player from July, 1999 to April, 2002
Over 4,900 Hours Played
Co-Founder of OLGA and member since 2002
I wasnt disagreeing that being addicted to EQ is crap. I know it is. I was just suggesting that you may have a theropy addiction. Especially if you know quitting will cause you to fall into a pit of dispair or whatever it is you said.
Eating, sleeping, bathing, etc arent choices, they are nessities to survive. Everyone must participate to keep alive. Theropy is not. I dont go to theropy yet Im still alive and fine. It isnt NESSISSARY to survive. That is why it is an addiction rather than the pretentiously immature suggestions of things that you made.
Lelgolas,
I bet you go around telling paraplegics that they don't need their wheel chairs too.
I didn't choose to be diagnosed with clinical depression. That happened quite independent of my desires.
Therapy is the tool that allows my somewhat crippled psyche to function in a "normal" world, much like a wheelchair allows a double-leg amputee to live a semblance of a normal life.
If you will stipulate that you have a breathing addiction and a food addiction, then I will likewise characterize my need for therapy as an addiction.
What you need to understand is that depression (and most other mental afflictions) are NOT cognitive disorders, but are attributed to a combination of genetic and organic causes. To put it in simpelr terms, my brain makes a chemical soup using a different recipe than most. Simply throwing drugs at the problem doesn't "cure" it, for the simple fact that brain chemistry is too complex.
By using a combination of the rather clumsy medications available today and therapy, I've been able to lead a fairly productive life. Taking either of those away would be like kicking the crutches out from under a CP patient.
Now, if it happens that you are one of those Philistines whose ignorance is so deep as to believe that mental illness is caused by "weakness" then you are as backward as those who believe that computer games are the cause of their problems.
Diggity McAdmin,
How does telling people to break their CDs help them? It is just like telling an alcoholic to pour out his beer. Stupid and ineffectual.
Also, I would like to point out that Alcohol and Drugs can kill people. EQ has never killed anyone. So don't you think you should spend your time on the AA and NA sites?
By the way, what is your opinion on the McDonalds thing, anyway. I am betting you think McDonalds should have to pay those fat kids. I mean, thank GOD someone sued a toaster company and made them put warnings on them, or else you would be dead right now holding a fork stuck in one. Because it's a company's responsibility to think for us and parent for us and inbue us with morals. Right?
Quote:EQ has never killed anyone. Actually, Omni, EQ has killed someone - my SON, or did you already forget?
I know of three other people (so far), beside by son, who are dead as a direct result of this game. There will be more, and I know there have been more, that I have not heard of.
I feel for you, and wonder why our organization is such a threat to you, if you don't have a problem with it, yourself??
Why are you so defensive? You may want to get some help with your anger issue.
Liz
Edited by: lizwool at: 12/12/02 6:35:05 am
Liz Woolley
Miss Wooly, if there is someone who shout NOT be telling others to get some help it would be you. You are so far out of whack that you still believe the game is the cause of your sons death.
You ignore all the arguments, you ignore all the facts that a game is unable to preform murder. I have scanned the newspapers for countless hours, with the exception of an Electronics Boutique truck running over someone, I havent found one game related death. Im sure there are unreported paper cuts and possible eye trama with the corners of the boxes, however, NO deaths.
I have ranted time and time again on you simply blaming a convienance, so I shall not go off on that rant again as you choose to ignore it. You live in your world of illusions where a game, not parental deficinies, or mental unbalance killed your son.
Like Ive said before Shawn took the easy way out by taking his own life. It is easier to pull a trigger than to deal with thing. you are doing no less. You arent dealing you are pulling the trigger of blame at something that cant fight back. It is the easy way, it is the road always traveled. Maybe Shawn was just following example.
Quote:Diggity McAdmin,How does telling people to break their CDs help them? It is just like telling an alcoholic to pour out his beer. Stupid and ineffectual.The breaking of one's CDs in really intended to be nothing more than a symbolic act of that person that he is taking control of his life back. Really no different than someone who decides to quit smoking who throws his cigarettes away or someone who drinks to throw his bottle away.
We only offer that as a suggestion. People will do and not do whatever they want or don't want to do. Quote:Also, I would like to point out that Alcohol and Drugs can kill people. EQ has never killed anyone. So don't you think you should spend your time on the AA and NA sites?Funny how you can say things like that, and no one calls you on it. Alcohol and drugs don't kill people, just like games don't kill people. Besides, I have never stated that games kill people or that games are responsible for anything, in and of themselves.
Besides, I neither drink nor take narcotics.
It's interesting though, that if the people here went to an AA or NA board to complain, they would be run out of town so quick. Personally, I think we are being too lenient to the trolls and griefers here, and I am being too stupid in repeatedly responding to people who are only here to argue. I'm not implying you with this last statement, but surely others.Quote:By the way, what is your opinion on the McDonalds thing, anyway. I am betting you think McDonalds should have to pay those fat kids. I actually adressed this in another thread. I don't think McDonalds should pay for fat kids, that gun makers should pay for people who are shot by others, and I don't feel that game manufacturers should pay for people who experience problems due to their excessive gameply.Quote:Because it's a company's responsibility to think for us and parent for us and inbue us with morals. Right? That may be what you believe, but it's not what I believe. People are so convinced of what my belief is on things, that when I tell them differently, they just don't hear it. People hear only what they want to hear, and believe only what they want to hear.
Sorry to disappoint you, but I agree with you.
Ron
Ron Jaffe AKA Diggo McDiggity
eMail: eqaddict@cfl.rr.com
Discussion Board Administrator
Everquest player from July, 1999 to April, 2002
Over 4,900 Hours Played
Co-Founder of OLGA and member since 2002