Question for Liz

Jackie,

Did you hear back from Ron?

I will ask Steve to give an introduction here and explain how became involved in this venue.

I have spoken to him. I don't know if he is an avid gamer. He is 23 years old, so still spunky. He does do social work for his job, so he sees first hand what gaming does to families and people.

Liz

Ok, I"m not liz and I have spoken with her privately, but I guess I want to air my concners publically though it's probably not my place to do so.

Steve links to his site, which openly promotes healthy gaming AND advertises for Eve On-Line. This to me seems to be a severe conflict of interest. Especially the advertising of an MMO to admitted MMO addicts.

It disturbs me. I'm sorry sorry sorry if it offends people that I'm speaking here. But say, some family members who FINALLY got their addict to come to this site and read stories then following the link of a moderator and administrator here saying, wow, I can LEARN to game responsibly. Gonna do THAT. Get off my case, YOU sent me here blah blah blah. Of course, someone isn't going to quit until they want to quit, but bleh. Sometimes reading stories is enough of a push to get gamers thinking without having a link here to an "out" so to speak.

I feel bad writing this because it's not my board and I haven't been here long. But maybe it's because I"m so new in my recovery that I see real problems with this. Believe me, I've been tempted to play other MMOs. This is my reminder place that I can't =

That all said, I don't know Steve well enough to for an opinion about HIM, but I'm sure his intentions are good and he cares about helping addicts recover and all. I'm really hoping this doesn't come across as a personal attack =( It's not. I have nothing against Steve personally or his site =) I just have real concerns about it being linked from here.

Edited by: tiredangel at: 11/4/05 22:19

Hi Erica,

Your questions are not going unheard. I appreciate your concern.

I have asked Steve to respond to these posts and to share his story with you.

I know he is talking to gaming companies about the addictive nature of their games, which I think is good. I do not want to promote a healthy game style here, because for some people, that is not an option. We are here for those.

Keep coming back!

LIz

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Edited by: Steven Larcombe at: 11/6/05 9:54

Steven, thank you for answering. I must say though, that I now even more concerned. Obviously, your site DOES have quite different goals as OLGA. Now, I am not against games, but PROMOTING gaming to addicts who are just coming to terms with addiction -- at your site, you're dealing with different issues than this site is. It's the linking to a site that has far different goals than this site which has me worried.

My anology, maybe this will make it a bit clearer. Since you are now an administrator here, and are trying to consel people, and are linking back to your gaming site, I think it's an apt one.

Say you are a bar owner or part owner. You have friends who are alcoholics so you get involved in the AA community, and though you're not an alcoholic yourself, for some reason TPTB decide it would be a good idea to chair meetings. So you chair a meeting, give people advice because you're researched it and know a lot of alcoholics and perhaps your advice is very very good. And you do believe in promoting healthy drinking. Then after meetings, you let people know they are welcome to come look around your bar, they may learn how to drink responsibly, but there's lot of other good things there, so come by and get other information.

Does that make my concerns about you linking your site more clear? I'm a gaming addict; I can't game responsibly. Put me in an MMO, and I'm there for the next 12 hours. But boy oh boy, had my husband had me come here and read stories when I was fighting that fact, and went to your site, that would have been a HUGE club I would have used against him. Addicts don't think like non-addicts =

Again, this is NOT a personal attack. And I am not against MMOs nor am I saying your site is bad. And for people who play too much but aren't addicts, it probably can help them a lot =)

Ah well, this is probably the last I'll say about this. It's not my board. I just am very worried since there are no other sites like OLGA =( And I'm worried about it losing the "addicts helping addicts" thing it has.

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Edited by: Steven Larcombe at: 11/6/05 9:55

I think you are a moron Steven! I do not trust you and I do not like your attitude

Here we are spilling our guts out and helping each other and you choose not to disclose personal info: like your education.

Come back when you are willing to be one of us
Steven please delete my account at Gameaddict.org.uk

Helene

Your entitled to your own opinion of me and I have deleted your Gameaddict account.

Steven Larcombe
Gameaddict.org.uk

Hmmmmmmmm......

I think Steve is gone.

I see he erased his messages and removed his name from our member list.

I wonder if Ron will come back, now......

It is okay to question someone. If you keep your life as an open book, you are not ashamed or insecure with yourself. If I cannot tell someone something about myself, it is usually because "I" am uncertain about it, not that it would matter to anyone else. If we are not able to share ourselves, what are "we" hiding from? Ourselves? I think Steve is young and hasn't yet gotten to that point in his life, yet. I hope he has learned from us and is thinking about what went on here.

I think he has two mindsets. He likes to game and he wants to be involved with the gaming companies, but he also sees what it can do to people.

I wonder if Ron will come back. You can't quit a 12-step program...

Liz

I felt compelled to answer to this, even enough to re-register.
Let me make it clear that not everyone likes to air their personal or professional traits within a public forum that lacks moderation.

My educational background and professional career is my business and I will choose who I give this information to.

Liz asked me to join OLG as an administrator to help out which I agreed to. Giving my OWN free time to help this community by developing it's website into something more manageable and easier to maintain along with helping the community.

For the little time that I have been here I have received nothing but personal attack from the forum regulars because they have their own agenda for what OLG does and how it operates.

I will not be scrutinised or verbally abused by any community that I give my FREE time to.

Quote:I think you are a moron Steven! I do not trust you and I do not like your attitude
You choose to verbally abuse someone because they choose not to air their professional or personal background with you, even after they choose to give up their OWN FREE time to help the very community that you are apart of. Very apt.

Quote:Oh my, I must've missed something. Steven, am I to understand you are not going to provide some detailed information about yourself? I honestly wasn't trying to stir up trouble here, but I do think, in light of the way you were answering posts here as if you were an expert, you owe visitors to the site a bit of background on yourself. Liz, Xandtar (sp?), Gundark, Diggo, and the other 'veterans' of the site have been directly impacted by gaming addiction, and it shows in their posts. They ring with an authenticity that only comes from having been there, and lived through it. Myself, and the other addicts who come here need that to feel comfortable.
If you had taken the time to get to know me as a person instead of trying to humiliate me on a public forum, then you would have learned about my background and who I am.

In this social world we don't simply go up to people and demand to know information from them just because we want to satisfy our own needs. You get to know someone or at least ask them in private.

Quote:If I am going to go to someone for help or advice, I want them to be an expert. My therapist has a PhD in psychology and is board certified in cognitive therapy. She's also a licensed psychotherapist. My doctor is an MD, also licensed. If I need help with a parenting issue, I ask other experienced parents who I know and respect.
If it was possible to get a PhD in gaming psychology and addiction I would be on it. But it is not. The condition is not clinically recognised, so for experts to emerge around the issue they have to learn, research and study. Exactly what I am doing and will continue to do.

Quote:It is okay to question someone. If you keep your life as an open book, you are not ashamed or insecure with yourself. If I cannot tell someone something about myself, it is usually because "I" am uncertain about it, not that it would matter to anyone else. If we are not able to share ourselves, what are "we" hiding from? Ourselves? I think Steve is young and hasn't yet gotten to that point in his life, yet. I hope he has learned from us and is thinking about what went on here.
To Liz, You are a great person who I respect and admire for your continued work into this area; although our aims and ideas on the subject are different your motives are admirable.

But to answer what you have mentioned.

Quote:If you keep your life as an open book
Some are happy to do so; I am one that chooses not to air my personal information on a poorly moderated public forum.

Quote:I think Steve is young and hasn't yet gotten to that point in his life, yet.
From reading that, yes I admit I am young, but if you think my age has anything to do with my ability to serve the gaming community in a professional capacity then you are wrong and do not know me well enough to make such informed judgements.

Quote:I hope he has learned from us and is thinking about what went on here.

What have I learned? Well OLG is a close knit community who shows hostility and a lack of understanding to new members of the OLG forum.

That the founder fails to communicate with her administrators on huge issues that affect them and the development of the OLG community. (try speaking to Ron more often Liz, If I had given 3 years of my life to helping a community I would atleast expect to be consulted on issues, especially new staff)

That information provided is contradicted, poorly constructed and poorly supported by sources. (I have given Liz examples)

That OLG as a whole is poorly maintained and supported and lacks the infrastructure to maintain itself internally.

That the forum to which it survives on is poorly moderated and is inhabited by members of the community who give paltry advice to those suffering from severe cases of depression.

That OLG will stand still as the industry moves on, and the rest of us move forward.

I have also learned that OLG is a site and resource that I do not wish myself or Gameaddict to be associated with.

The difference between us is great. You stand and wait for the gamers to come to you. Where as we actually do work within the vey gaming communities that we support.

Think of me what you will, if I cared what everyone thought about me, I wouldnaEU(tm)t be able to function on a daily basis. I am glad that this has come about so early on, I would have hated it if I had invested so much of my free time.

I wish OLG well.

Steve
Gameaddict.org.uk

Edited by: Steve at: 11/7/05 6:05

Steve,
I am glad you came back and responded to our questions. Thank you.

I will address points you have made in your posts.

If a person is in a position of offering guidance to others, yes, the person can be asked for information about themselves. I do not see why it is so difficult to share that.

Everyone is here on a volunteer basis. I appreciate the time you are giving to us Steve.

I do not think the "regulars" were attacking you, any more than you attacked Ron and his posts, publicly. They wanted to know about you. Trust me, Steve, all of us administrators here have been "attacked" by people. Mostly, by people who have never seen someone get addicted to a game. You have got to have thick skin to do this.

I, try not to be judgemental of anyone. Everyone has their own reasoning for their actions, posts and questions. It is when we get uncomfortable or react to what is happening that we need to look at ourselves. Usually our "buttons" are being pushed. That is a where we can grow beyond ourselves.

This board was founded, so people who have problems with excessive gaming, or people who know of someone, have a place to go. That is it. We do not say who and who cannot be here, unless they are absolutely here to grief us. Anyone is welcome. If others want to help, I open the doors. If they can handle it, fine, more power to them. My only point to you, Steve, is that you were able to attack Ron's post publicly, but when people questioned you, you could not deal with it.....
Steven, the time I have personally spent with you, you sound like a very kind, caring person. I know you have concerns about people addicted to gaming, or you would not have created your website. Thank you for caring about others.

This is a 12-step self-help program. We are not professionals here. We moderate this board as little as possible, so as not to control it. We let it take on it's own character. It has already gone many different ways. We are people sharing our experiences, strengths and hopes to help each other recover and heal from the problems caused by excessive game playing.

Steve, I hope you change your mind about leaving us. I think the more people here, the better. It is good to get other people's views. You may see a situation a little different than anyone else, and so are able to offer a different experience to someone coming in here.

This condition has not yet been addressed by many professionals as a real problem. As Steve has stated, they have to do their "research" before they they can treat people. The medical profession has only recognized gambling as a treatable disease a couple of years ago. This is a quote about internet addiction: Quote:"The fact is it's not listed in the DSM ('Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders') as a diagnostic code for therapists and mental health practitioners to get reimbursed, so they will call it impulse control disorder," Parker said.

As for not being answering questions about ourselves, I understand you may not be comfortable doing that on a public board. That is very fair.

Trust me Steve, as you grow and gain more wisdom and experience on this earth, your views and comfort here with yourself and others do change. Being young has it's pluses, but being older also has it's advantages. For myself, my experiences has taught me to be less judgemental of MYSELF as well as OTHERS. Let's us all just get along, and do the best we can here. WE ARE HERE FOR THE SAME PURPOSE, we just respond to it differently, and THAT'S OKAY TOO! Also I have come to realize, the older I get, the less I know. I am more open to what others say, be it positive or negative. If something someone else says really "burns" me, I know one of my buttons has been pushed. I do not want any buttons, so I thank the person for bringing that button to my awareness, and I know I need look into myself and see where that came from, and work through it.

As for what happened with Ron, I am as shocked as everyone else about that turn of events. I was so happy to have found you, I thought it was great to have someone else on board! I thought he would have been happy to have you along, Steve, as his and your views are very similar. I cannot control others. I do apologize for everyone here, and to Ron, for my short-sightedness. I hope you come back, Ron, and I hope you stay around, Steve.

I know we have mentioned the 12-steps a lot here, but we really have not talked about the 12 Traditions. The steps were written so we don't kill ourselves. The traditions were created so we don't kill each other. Tradition 9: OLGA/OLG-Anon., as such, ought never be organized; but we may create service boards or committees directly responsible to those they serve. Here is a link to the traditions: www.olganon.org/About/12_Traditions/12_traditions.html

I hope this helps.

Liz

Edited by: lizwool at: 11/7/05 10:31

By definition,

We are a group of people who have been hurt and/or have hurt others.

We are sensitive, not hostile.

Our mission is not hard to understand. We are here for those who cannot control their gaming, and for their families and friends who are affected. We offer encouragement and support, with links to weekly meetings and other support in our stories, so that those who are in doubt can know that they are not alone, that they are not crazy, and that there is hope.

There are those among us who feel that there is a continuum to this addiction, that some who are somewhat overwhelmed with whatever their poison is right now, can deal with their gaming and other life issues and find a new balance in their lives that include gaming. Others among us feel that while laudable, that is not in the primary scope of this site. I am among this latter group, I know that I cannot handle games of any kind and our first priority must be to help those people just like me.

Nevertheless, I am glad that there are websites forming out there that specifically cater to the second group, those needing rebalance, not necessarily abstinence, from all further gaming. Do I consider it competition? Not at all. I believe, now as before, that people should seek out those people and places which can give them the most help for what they need. Not everyone needs to quit drinking to deal with a short-term crisis which they've been salving with alcohol. They need to deal with the crisis. But for others, the alcohol IS the crisis, and they need to stop and stay stopped, forever.

The world changes around us every day. Times change, and new strategies emerge to deal with these changes. Yet, sadly, some things are absolute, and the presence of addiction is one of these. We are here for those who want help. And the 12 step program works, for those who take that road and stick to it. Recovery is recovery is recovery, whatever the addiction. I work to help people recover. It helps me to help others.

It had been my hope that we could have dealt with this in the moderators' forum prior to all of this public soul-searching. It didn't happen that way, and that's just how it is. We know who we are, at OLGAnon. Our mission is clear, if simple. We welcome all, but we do not agree with all who come here. I thank God every day that this site exists, it has helped me reclaim my life from a very, very bad place and I do not apologize for feeling as I do.

That is all I wish to say at this time.

For what its worth,

Please do not be upset with us because we do not go out among the gaming community, as you intend to do. We have learned through bitter experience of the flame wars that erupt when overzealous members of our boards did that very thing.

It is only by not getting in the gamers' faces in THEIR house (as they see it) that we avoid having hundreds of angry posters come into this very small site and overwhelm it with flames. This has happened at least three times in the past. As it is, we exist, we can be found by Google searches, and the flamers leave us alone.

Perhaps with your different focus on gaming less, not addiction recovery per se, you can avoid the flame wars that we could not for a time. I rather doubt it, but I shall never know. Good luck to you, Mr. Larcombe.

Well put Bruce.
Tradition 11: Our public relations policy is based on attraction rather than promotion; we need always maintain personal anonymity at the level of press, radio and films.

Steve, if I still played EQ, I would send you a tell that said, "Why the hate?" /gentle grin. People don't come to OLGA for professional couselling, that is definitely outside the scope of this board. Liz makes it very clear that we cannot help with depression. For the most part, we are addicts and can offer real-world advice to help others with what we went through. If someone has a mental disease aside from the addiction, we can't help them with that, as no one on this board could help me with my auto-immune disorder (and having pain when getting around is a contributing factor for a lot of gamers, just as depression may be as well).

Diagnosing anyone with any disease is dangerous; there are specific screening questions used to diagnose depression used by couselors. You can't diagnose someone from a post on a board. Period.

I'm not a couselor nor would I claim to be nor would I speak from a position of authority. I'm an addict. I know what I did to stop playing, and I can pass that on to others; it may just work for them. I can work the steps which DO work, if I want them to. THere are NO magic cures though; I can decide to game at any time, and no amount of couselling or time at OLGA will stop me if I make that conscious decision. And your site, unfortuantely, does encourage people to make that decision and honestly, you can profit off the people here coming there and making that choice.

OLGA isn't big, it isn't fancy, and everyone here may end up quitting working the steps and go away, or . . . people will still come here, work the steps, and may continue to choose a life outside of Norrath or wherever.

If you're going to talk and advise as an expert, people will question your credintials. And wanting them to be more than "because I say so" is not unreasonable. Since you're giving advice, it's not private information to the people you're advising. And people not taking you at your word here is not hostile. I'm sorry you take it as such. As your board gets larger and gains more in popularity, you can expect even more scrutiny. This board is upfront on credentials -- OLGA can never be attacked on that front.

I hope OLGA stays around. It's been around for a long time. Not a huge place, but you know, it doesn't have to be. It's helping people who want and need help. And my guess is, when it gets down to it, the steps will continue in their old-fashioned way to help people =) They do work.

Hugs,
Tiredangel

In response.

Gameaddict serves the gaming community and the very gamers that are apart of the gaming community.

We are part of this gaming community and are involved within the following games:

World of Warcraft
Eve Online
Star Wars Galaxies
World War 2 Online
Anarchy Online

We talk with gamers in game and on gaming forums surrounding the very issue of excessive game play. We also talk with games developers and other people related to the gaming industry. We have and are establishing a large network within the very community that we support and so far have received no attempts from gamers to attack us in any way, considering that our forums and e-mail are freely available to anonymous users.

We have procedures in place internally to deal with such issues, and we will deal with them swiftly and without hesitation. Our direction and approach is catered for the gamer and will always remain so.

It is this difference and lack of understanding about what Gameaddict is and what "I" do that seems to confuse people here. Our mission, objectives and aims are clearly stated for all to see and the information we provide is based around professionaly tried and tested methods aswell as research.

People here seem to think that our support methods and the overall nature of Gameaddict contradict eachother. I have put a whole year into researching the very subject before putting Gameaddict live, so I believe our approach to be relevant and balanced in respect of all gamers needs.

As for this community, I will not work in a hostile environment whether intentional by the community or not. I will not stand for it in real life and I will not stand for it within a virtual environment. If such issues arise on the Gameaddict forums, methods are in place to deal with such issues as and when they arise. I or my fellow team who moderate OUR forums will not tolerate anyone verbally abusing any member. I will not tolerate it there and I certainly won't tolerate it here.

I give my time freely to develop Gameaddict and I had hoped to help do the same for OLG. And to think I spent nearly all of my day off on sunday working on a new website template for OLG.

After my short but sightly stay at OLG I have found that the environment is not suitable for myself to be apart of or for Gameaddict visitors to be referred to. It is at the gaming communities detriment that the partnership between OLG and Gameaddict crumbled before it even began, but with the future development of Gameaddict moving on daily and with our internal network growing, I see us doing fine.

Regarding the issue with Ron, Personally I think your lack of communication with him on issues such as my introduction into the community was as much cause for him leaving as my overly zealous response to his post regarding Anti-Depressents. I have personally apologised to Ron and I do hope that he returns to OLG.

But please give the man some credit, he has invested 3 years of his life into OLG and you can't even discuss issues with him, which he should have input on.

I do think you serioulsy need to look internally at how OLG operates. OLG is supposed to be an organisation, but I don't see much organisation, just a forum of people with a common interest and experience.

I am not going to be sticking around here. As I have said, I don't wish to be part of such a community that has displayed nothing but hostility to someone who was just trying to help.

I do hope that you learn from this experience, because I know I certainly have and I certainly will make sure that we at Gameaddict never resort to such a state.

Steve
Gameaddict.org.uk

Well you know,

I won't miss you, Steve.

You work for and/or with gaming companies.

Whatever your motive, you are having tea with the Devil, and its hard not to fall into sin.

Pardon my religious analogy.

Edited by: Xandtar at: 11/7/05 12:15

I still think questions are good.

The only dumb question is an unasked question.

Liz

There's nothing formal about 12 step programs -- we ARE just a bunch of people on a forum, sharing experiences =) That may not be your idea of what is effective, but it's all any 12 step program is, and they have worked quite well for over half a century now. Not a magic cure all, but they are a very effective tool for people who want to use them.

I wish you could step back a second and see that questioning your credentials, *what makes you able to give advice at OLGA* is not hostile. Since your actual goals at gameaddicts is different, it is too bad you could not just hold off on giving people advice here and instead just let the two groups support each other and respect the different goals and needs of both groups = Just like AA and Al-Anon support each other, but stay out of each other's mix other than to refer people who need the other to the other.

Thank you for the redesign of the website =) Volunteering your time is very generous =D

Edited by: tiredangel at: 11/7/05 12:03

Well said. If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen!

When I first decided to start speaking out about this underground epidemic (which no one else was talking about at the time) - that is the first step to addressing any addiction - first it has to be verbalized and moved into the seeing eye, so you know you aren't the only one this is happening to, and so that family members and friends who think they are all to blame, know that they are not crazy and that excessive gaming is not a normal, healthy activity, I said to myself, I am going tell what is happening here, and you aren't going to shut me up! (I guess other people who had attempted to talk about it previously were threatened.) I also said, you can't take anything more away from me than you already have (my son), so try and stop me.

The people who know what is really happening in the gaming world, have not been my worst critics. It is the people who haven't seen it happen who are.

I want this organization to be as much as "hands off" from me or anyone else as possible. It is important to have a safe place, and to let it flow, and see where it takes us. We can all hop on for the ride and adventure, and we certainly have had one this week. I still hope Ron comes back to join us.

Liz

Steve,

Don't sweat hostility. ("Don't take it too personal, son, life ain't nowhow permanent" - Pogo) You will definitely find some who will never warm to you, but by bidding farewell to those, you are potentially treating those as the voice of this board. It is not the OLGA organization that doesn't trust you. The visitors and members are trying to come to accept you as an administrator and not everyone needs to accept it.

I personally care nothing whether you or someone else is a moderator, nor do qualifications from an educational institute impress me because I know that age and education, although a fine bellweather, is not exclusively indicative of personal expertise. A mature and open mind, something rare in people at any age, goes a long way.

Stay or go, but don't let yourself think you need to win everyone over. I'd hazard a guess that you haven't burned any bridges behind you... scorched, maybe.

Liz could use you.

Whatev... hehe - "Live long and prosper".

Edited by: Odien at: 11/8/05 20:12