A Teacher's Perspective

Scary, indeed. The virtual world is here to stay. I suppose it all started with simulators and now we're where we are. I still think the difference is that when you're in a simulator, you're you, the real-life you. In most of these games you're a character. At some point, I think it's possible to forget who you really are. I've written the group who does Red Ribbon week. I really, truly believe that's where we need to start. Antibiotics can save your life; an allergic reaction can kill you. Ditto pain-killers, etc. There are good drugs and bad drugs. There are also fun games and there are dangerous games that can mess up a young kid's identity/psyche. I think we need to start teaching kids very young that there is a difference and that games can damage you...permanently. I also worry about the type of values that kids learn in these games. I still contend that my son's value system was damaged. In-game success required deceit, treachery, manipulation, etc. After months and months of having your mind operate in that world there's an unconscious transference of those values to the real world. I read something on another forum today about hypnosis...there were some strong parallels to what's done in-game. I'll try to copy it and post it if I can.

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They wrote about their Wii and PS3 when prompted to write about "God's Best Creation."

Heartbreaking, just heartbreaking :'(

Honestly, I see myself as an evangelist of sorts about gaming addiction. The most effective communication, hands down, about these sorts of things is the face-to-face contact with friends or acquaintances. I cannot TELL you how many people I have talked to about this... especially people with young kids... to highlight the dangers and pitfalls of these games. SO many people have said, yikes, I had no idea - for instance, my brother's son, now 6, is obsessed with some little Pokemon computer game, and we sat down and had a very serious talk about Willy and the WoW problem, and how it started out exactly the same way. They were shocked, and said they would be extremely vigilant as the years went by. The first thing they decided to do was stop using the computer as a reward, something I know many parents (including us) do. And once your eyes are open, you start seeing it everywhere, and I never ever miss a chance to open up my mouth about it. The problem is, from a parent's perspective, gaming is such a win-win (at least until it turns into a hideous addiction and ruins the kid's and the family's life). The kid is quiet, not teasing his sister, not screaming or belching, not hitting the lamps with a light sabre or jumping off the garage roof. The house is clean, no little schnibbles of paper from craft projects, no tools left laying on the driveway, no mummified Barbie dolls in shoe boxes. And you get the ultimate carrot and stick in one: do X or no computer, do X and more computer. X gets done or not done, it's a miracle. The thing is, all the screaming and schnibbles and popsicle sticks left on the couch are the signs of a normal yet irritating and messy childhood. It's the stuff all of us wish our kids would just stop doing, and it's why the computer is such a panacea. I can totally understand how so many families get where we all got... it's a wonder more of them don't. Sorry this isn't exactly optimistic but it's my take on the young kids/computer situation! What can we do about it besides what we're doing now? Jane in CT

If I'm ever in FL again during the school year, i'd be happy to come and talk to your fellow teachers from a parent's perspective. I agree that it's very hard to parent in this electronic age, but I know that if I had really known these games could be truly addictive, I would have done a lot more to keep my kid out of them. The bit about the 2nd-grader at happy hour was interesting. When i was a kid you would NEVER have seen that. Maybe parents feel they can do that BECAUSE the electronic babysitter is available.

The 14 year old kid just learning how to read and loves Runescape is a disturbing parallel. But I will comment here as someone who's been gaming since they were 2 years old.

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I also worry about the type of values that kids learn in these games. I still contend that my son's value system was damaged. In-game success required deceit, treachery, manipulation, etc. After months and months of having your mind operate in that world there's an unconscious transference of those values to the real world.

The subconscious is so permeable at a young age. Some people can be helped by simply being taught the difference between reality and fantasy, while others it's just moot. Of course, I dont know your son or anything, but I did grow up hanging out with a lot of male gamers (due to the lack of female gamers in my area) and some did have that same trait without even noticing they had it. But I've seen NON gamers like that as well. I think it's something that's always there and just waiting to be triggered, unfortunately. The "Electronic babysitter..."
What about "the non-human babysitter?" The safety of objects is frightening. Human babysitters cost money, and not all parents have money. Not all parents live near or have friends and relatives willing to look after their children while working or having a moment to themselves. When I was growing up, I found safety in objects. It wasn't due to my mother using a babysitter substitute, it was due to me just being that outcast kid up until my junior year of high school. I spent more time around my adult relatives and their friends than people my own age, no matter how much I tried to fit in. As I said, it wasnt until high school I found people who I could relate to, who didnt care what I wore or what I liked. What disturbs me is that nowadays, these more 'popular' types of people are buried in these more ensnaring games...

It is very scary. It makes me think much more about the time my son plays on his PS2. I'm going to make a point to limit it much more and get out with him and throw the ball around etc.. I like what someone mentioned about, '' the electronic babysitter''. That is such a true thought... it is so easy to let the kids keep at their gaming while you are doing your thing.

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I was received with "Oh, you don't have children yet! Just wait! You'll see!"

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I don't know why but that made me smile ;) I can't tell you how many things my Ex and I said "never with OUR child" before he was born that somehow "changed" after. There were also quite a few that we DID stick too that some other parents would "roll their eyes" over...
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There were a couple of articles in our local paper this past weekend that made my eyes roll ::). One was a how churches are using their availability of Xbox Live/Halo 3 to entice kids to come to Sunday school. Their perspective is that once they get them in the door the have a better chance of making them participate in a service. Another was about a woman with some sort of muscular degeneration. She used Second Life as a means of feeling alive again; her in-game friends convinced her to keep trying to use that same determination in real life and she eventually started walking. I will never argue that there is good to be derived from gaming. But in the wrong hands or for the wrong reasons, these virtual reality games can be disastrous. Every time I read a story about person (especially a young man) who has suddenly, without apparent reason or warning, set off on a killing mission I wonder to myself if they are playing some sort of video game that dulls their sense of real life and living. So many of the problems we see are due to ignorance; ours certainly was. I see education as the best way to make people aware of the pros and cons. So you hang in there, Solei! You can be the school spokesperson for the potential dangers.

"WoW Parent " wrote:

There were a couple of articles in our local paper this past weekend that made my eyes roll ::).A One was a how churches are using their availability of Xbox Live/Halo 3 to entice kids to come to Sunday school.A Their perspective is that once they get them in the door the have a better chance of making them participate in a service.A

That is messed up. I know the McDonalds here had video games to play too in the playground area. But a church, wow. Debbie

The New York Times had an article regarding churches using Halo 3 as a recruitment tool for youth. The article title is "Thou Shalt Not Kill, Except in a Popular Video Game at Church" and is at http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/07/us/07halo.html?_r=2&ei=5090&en=ac561e7d5c5d7772&ex=1349496000&adxnnl=1&oref=slogin&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss&adxnnlx=1191931573-OqXuBF2ixEYV3K4Hs97WKg. Personally, I am concerned about this for several reasons, with one of them being that, as the article says, the churches are allowing quite young children to play this game at an age where they would not be legally allowed to be buy it themselves directly.

There is only an alternate world a 6 year old should integrate in - and that is one created by himself - a month ago I went to a kid's house to do some research on developmental psychology on this kid's hand tuning- and he was playing with his playstation, he was 4 years old, it kind made me sad, though luckily after I did the interviews with this kid; he was developing healthily for his age. When I was 4 - 6 years old; my brother and I used to create a fantasy world of our own; pretend that the kitchen table was a house; the kitchen was a restaurant and stuff like that. It saddens me seeing a 4 year old in front of the ps4 isntead of stimulating his own imagination; one has no idea how good the imaginative gameplay of such young children would have on their intelligence in their future. When I was young; I recall my cousin had a nintendo game of the sort you put a cassette in (I am speaking 1989) and I used to wish I had one; it looked so lovely; all those colours; used to be jealous of the kids in class who had a PC and stuff,since my father had only brought in a pc as late as 1999, when I was 13. Nowadays I'm glad I used to play house with the kitchen table- makes a much fonder memory. :P
I think I won't let my kids use a pc or play pc games; I want them to make the house their playground and create their own world there.

Thanks Solei, good to hear from you. :) Video/computer games definitely have great potential to become a big problem in the lives of children. I honestly don't know what the solution is... but I do think that a 'witch hunt' mentality on gaming is not going to be as well received as a rational approach to the inherent dangers present in video games which have been all but overlooked. Thankfully that is changing.. albeit slowly. Games aren't all evil, and non-gamers aren't all good. This just my theory, but I think that if the youth was more wholesomely grounded in Life the temptation of gaming and onset of addiction wouldn't be nearly as much of a problem. What I mean by that is an ability to accept all aspects of themselves and everything/everyone around them as they are. No I don't have kids, so I have no idea what this challenge is like, but I do know that kids are EXTREMELY sensitive and pick up on EVERYTHING their parents do and feel, even if their not expressing it. Is this how neurosis are passed on from one generation to the next? I'm not blaming the parents, I'm not blaming the schools, I'm not blaming the government; its everyone's responsibility to for letting things get the way they are. I know for me games developed as a coping mechanism, as a way to "have fun" mostly. Where's the problem there-- I couldn't have "fun" in real life. Because I felt so stifled and closed in. This is not the way I was as a baby when I was born, babies are so free and themselves and naturally supple and expressive. Everyone loves babies, why is that? I don't accept that it is a natural part of "growing up" to develop neurosis, depression and addictions. It must have come from somewhere, and that somewhere is all around us, its the society we've created. I'm not blaming anyone but ourselves, and even thats okay. There's nothing inherently wrong or bad with the way things are, it just doesn't work for building whole people. Anyway, thank you again for posting Solei.. my field is going to be working with youth a lot, taking them out in the wilderness for maybe what you can call a 'Wilderness Experience'. It doesn't get much more real than that in my opinion :). Also considering returning for my Masters in Counseling Psychology. Blessings,
Matt

Our DMN had yet another article about using gaming as a way to influence kids. The latest and greatest is making video games available at the libraries to entice kids to enter them. One librarian stated that it might take a kid 30 visits where they do nothing but game. But on the 31st day, they decide to take a look around.

That's pretty sad. I think we may need to add librarians to the list of people we need to educate about this problem. At our little local library, they kind of keep an eye on what kids are doing at the computers, and i remember one of the librarians calling me one time at home to warn me that my kid was spending too much time in chatrooms on their computers and they were going to ban him from using their computers for a week. While I wouldn't expect that to happen at all libraries, I think if librarians were aware of the potential for problems, they could pick out the kid who spends hours in the same game every day and intervene somehow, either by putting time limits on EVERYBODY (which I would agree with wholeheartedly and many libraries already do), or by saying something to the kid, or maybe even talking to the parents and warning them. The parents may have no idea that the kid is gaming there and may think he is actually spending that much time looking at books. Matt, it's an extremely rare kid who is absolutely comfortable with everything about themselves and the world around them, and I don't know that it's strictly a product of society today. Even back in the idyllic 50's and 60's, all of us kids had issues about ourselves and our lives. Everybody does, except maybe psychopaths.

I think this problem goes as far as back as recorded history... :). My point is that maybe the outer world we live in mirrors our inner one as people, and the "answer" isn't out there anywhere, but inside. I know its not a popular perspective, maybe this is the wrong place to present it too. But I can't help it, I see the significance of this everywhere.

All of this is particularly scary when you hear the statistics concerning the growing popularity of multi-user virtual reality video games. A recent report by the Gartner Group (an Information Technology consulting house and predictor of IT trends), predicts that by the year 2011 over 80% of all internet traffic will be in virtual worlds like Second Life. They even think that the original 2 dimensional WWW will be replaced eventually by 3D worlds. I find this horribly scary and a potential public health nightmare. Gary

Yeah, thats about what I figured, but 2011 is so soon. Well, can't stop 'evolution' I supposed.

Adobe had a program where you could actually create 3D environments of your own and then they scrapped it. It was called atmospheres. Its not part of adobe 9.0. I don't think the 3D world is coming anytime soon. I know Mr Gates described computers using the senses of smells and even tastes. Who knows what the future will hold?

Solei, I had not read this thread before. How interesting and tragic at the same time. I think it deserves a bump.

For future references, I am posting the full article here, that John has referred to.

Thou Shalt Not Kill, Except in a Popular Video Game at Church

By MATT RICHTEL
Published: October 7, 2007

First the percussive sounds of sniper fire and the thrill of the kill. Then the gospel of peace.
Kevin Moloney for The New York Times

Some churches have rented more TVs for Halo nights.

Across the country, hundreds of ministers and pastors desperate to reach young congregants have drawn concern and criticism through their use of an unusual recruiting tool: the immersive and violent video game Halo.

The latest iteration of the immensely popular space epic, Halo 3, was released nearly two weeks ago by Microsoft and has already passed $300 million in sales.

Those buying it must be 17 years old, given it is rated M for mature audiences. But that has not prevented leaders at churches and youth centers across Protestant denominations, including evangelical churches that have cautioned against violent entertainment, from holding heavily attended Halo nights and stocking their centers with multiple game consoles so dozens of teenagers can flock around big-screen televisions and shoot it out.

The alliance of popular culture and evangelism is challenging churches much as bingo games did in the 1960s. And the question fits into a rich debate about how far churches should go to reach young people.

Far from being defensive, church leaders who support Halo -- despite its "thou shalt kill" credo -- celebrate it as a modern and sometimes singularly effective tool. It is crucial, they say, to reach the elusive audience of boys and young men.

Witness the basement on a recent Sunday at the Colorado Community Church in the Englewood area of Denver, where Tim Foster, 12, and Chris Graham, 14, sat in front of three TVs, locked in violent virtual combat as they navigated on-screen characters through lethal gun bursts. Tim explained the game's allure: "It's just fun blowing people up."

Once they come for the games, Gregg Barbour, the youth minister of the church said, they will stay for his Christian message. "We want to make it hard for teenagers to go to hell," Mr. Barbour wrote in a letter to parents at the church.

But the question arises: What price to appear relevant? Some parents, religious ethicists and pastors say that Halo may succeed at attracting youths, but that it could have a corroding influence. In providing Halo, churches are permitting access to adult-themed material that young people cannot buy on their own.

"If you want to connect with young teenage boys and drag them into church, free alcohol and pornographic movies would do it," said James Tonkowich, president of the Institute on Religion and Democracy, a nonprofit group that assesses denominational policies. "My own take is you can do better than that."

Daniel R. Heimbach, a professor of Christian ethics at Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary, believes that churches should reject Halo, in part because it associates thrill and arousal with killing.

"To justify whatever killing is involved by saying that it's just pixels involved is an illusion," he said.

Focus on the Family, a large evangelical organization, said it was trying to balance the game's violent nature with its popularity and the fact that churches are using it anyway. "Internally, we're still trying to figure out what is our official view on it," said Lisa Anderson, a spokeswoman for the group.

There is little doubting Halo's cultural relevance. Even as video games have grown in popularity, the Halo series stands out. The first Halo and Halo 2 sold nearly 15 million copies combined. Microsoft says that Halo 3 "is on track to become the No. 1 gaming title of all time."

Hundreds of churches use Halo games to connect with young people, said Lane Palmer, the youth ministry specialist at the Dare 2 Share Ministry, a nonprofit organization in Arvada, Colo., that helps churches on youth issues.

"It's very pervasive," Mr. Palmer said, more widespread on the coasts, less so in the South, where the Southern Baptist denomination takes a more cautious approach. The organization recently sent e-mail messages to 50,000 young people about how to share their faith using Halo 3. Among the tips: use the game's themes as the basis for a discussion about good and evil.

At Swee****er Baptist Church in Lawrenceville, Ga., Austin Brown, 16, said, "We play Halo, take a break and have something to eat, and have a lesson," explaining that the pastor tried to draw parallels "between God and the devil."

Players of Halo 3 control the fate of Master Chief, a tough marine armed to the teeth who battles opponents with missiles, lasers, guns that fire spikes, energy blasters and other fantastical weapons. They can also play in teams, something the churches say allows communication and fellowship opportunities.

Complicating the debate over the appropriateness of the game as a church recruiting tool are the plot's apocalyptic and religious overtones. The hero's chief antagonists belong to the Covenant, a fervent religious group that welcomes the destruction of Earth as the path to their ascension.

The Colorado Community Church is one of many across the nation reaching out to young people through the video game Halo.

Microsoft said Halo 3 was a "space epic" that was not intended to make specific religious references or be more broadly allegorical. Advocates of using the game as a church recruiting tool say the religious overtones are sufficiently cartoonish and largely overlooked by players.

Martial images in literature or movies popular with religious people are not new. The popular "Left Behind" series of books -- it also spawned a video game -- dealt with the conflict preceding the second coming of Christ. Playing Halo is "no different than going on a camping trip," said Kedrick Kenerly, founder of Christian Gamers Online, an Internet site whose central themes are video games and religion. "It's a way to fellowship."

Mr. Kenerly said the idea that Halo is inappropriately violent too strictly interpreted the commandment "Thou shalt not kill." "I'm not walking up to someone with a pistol and shooting them," he said. "I'm shooting pixels on a screen."

Mr. Kenerly's brother, Ken Kenerly, 43, is a pastor who recently started a church in Atlanta and previously started the Family Church in Albuquerque, N.M., where quarterly Halo nights were such a big social event that he had to rent additional big-screen TVs.

Ken Kenerly said he believed that the game could be useful in connecting to young people he once might have reached in more traditional ways, like playing sports. "There aren't as many kids outdoors as indoors," he said. "With gamers, how else can you get into their lives?"

John Robison, the current associate pastor at the 300-member Albuquerque church, said parents approached him and were concerned about the Halo games' M rating. "We explain we're using it as a tool to be relatable and relevant," he said, "and most people get over it pretty quick."

David Drexler, youth director at the 200-member nondenominational Country Bible Church in Ashby, Minn., said using Halo to recruit was "the most effective thing we've done."

In rural Minnesota, Mr. Drexler said, the church needs something powerful to compete against the lure of less healthy behaviors. "We have to find something that these kids are interested in doing that doesn't involve drugs or alcohol or premarital sex." His congregation plans to double to eight its number of TVs, which would allow 32 players to compete at one time.

Among parents at the Colorado Community Church, Doug Graham, a pediatric oncologist with a 12-year-old son, said that he was not aware of the game's M rating and that it gave him pause. He said he felt that parents should be actively involved in deciding whether minors play an M-rated game. "Every family should have a conversation about it," he said.

Mr. Barbour, the youth pastor at the church, said the game had led to a number of internal discussions prompted by elders who complained about its violent content. Mr. Barbour recently met for several hours with the church's pastor and successfully made his case that the game was a crucial recruiting tool.

In one letter to parents, Mr. Barbour wrote that God calls ministers to be "fishers of men."

"Teens are our 'fish," he wrote. "So we've become creative in baiting our hooks."

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/07/us/07halo.html?_r=3&ei=5090&en=ac561e7d5c5d7772&ex=1349496000&adxnnl=1&oref=slogin&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss&adxnnlx=1191931573-OqXuBF2ixEYV3K4Hs97WKg&

It is irony and ignorrance.

They'd never suggest children smoke, drink, take drugs, and gaming is one of the worst "drugs" ever produced.

I talk about it with my son that way. Not with condemnation, but with science and honesty.

Irony, ignorance and tragedy.

ETA The original reference here to the article I see now is in a much older post in this thread. The Times' article was written in October 2007, and Colorado Community Church is, to add to the irony, in Aurora.

It would be easy for me to make a bunch of nasty remarks here. I started and then erased them. Instead I'm asking: "How is this relevant to my recovery? What is the lesson?" I guess the lesson for me is that I live in a culture that supports addictive (destructive) behavior in many, many ways, not just in this way. So to be in recovery is to be taking the road less traveled. A road that stands apart from the mainstream of what our culture tells us is OK. I need to walk that path in a healthy way, in the care of HP, so that my experience, strength and hope might help others. That's the lesson I'm trying to take from this.

This may be true for this Church, but this is rare, in my experience. I have joined many churches and have been to many in my area; none of them condone this behavior. I am sorry to see that they are using these tactics to get children to come to their church. I hope that they can see the light in the future.

Please note, that this was from 2007. This post was important to me, so I put it in the Golden Oldies section.

MY, HOW THINGS HAVE CHANGED!

Anyone who has a post(s) that are favorites and don't want them to get lost, we can put them in the Golden Oldies section for you.

This is very important to me. Does the church, or any church, hold marijuana and heroin groups for teenage boys in their church basements, who shoot up, then stay for the sermon?

Do churches, like those listed above, invite teenagers to drinking sessions (to learn how to drink responsively, of course) so that the kids can stay after hours and hear the Jesus message? no.

Games are being thrown around and used as "tools" as if they were totally innocent of any addiction or violent behavior attached. I thought at first this was like the violent cartoons on tv that parents objected to, but games are worse. Gaming can actually cause addiction and/or it brings out the violence in kids. And since we already live in a violent society (check out our violent behavior in the USA alone), is violent gaming really a good thing for kids?

I'm addicted to gaming and if I wasn't I would still be against this type of gaming for kids.

But since I am also addicted to gaming, I shudder at all the protential gaming addicts being created right now.

This was from 2007 and now it is 2013, it would be interesting to see how far we have come with this whole issue, has it gotten worse? or better.

At the church my family attends, (it's huge) there are a ton of video games for kids to play before their kid's service. I've visited 2 churches.. both have video games in the before and after church area.

I don't feel angry for them.. but sad because of the ignorance.. They've absolutely no idea. And that's not really their fault.

As a parent that does understand the dangers though... it's hard.